Wacky Shadows

Blitzy

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Im sure many have noticed... but the shadows ingame are kind of, odd.
For instance, when two objects are placed on each other, the top objects shadow projects right through the lower object! This has happend in both 2003 and 2004 (crane scene) e3 videos.

I dont know, i guess i though they would have fixed it or something.
 

BlazeKun

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I noticed this, was one of the two graphical problems I noticed. It's most noticable on the crane when he lifts up the giant shipping container. It just really stood out as being ugly.

The other graphical oddity I notices was in the first strider war video *the first one on the big demo* Gordon hides behind a car and you can see all the shots ricocheting off the strider THROUGH the car. This is actually a bug that's currently in HL1. Static objects like walls and stuff will work completely normal, but if it's an entity like a door you can see the lens flare straight through it. Hope this one gets fixed!
 

Apos

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The sparks thing was fixed, but the shadow thing will probably not be. You'll live. :)
 

PvtRyan

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The shadows are just the way HL2 uses it, it won't be fixed.
It's a bit ugly yes, but hell at least it's soft shadowing *pokes Doom 3* :p
 

Polykarbon

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I created an example picture[in MSpaint] to show you guys how colted gl depth shadows work.

Colted depth stencil shadows

This would be a situation where you might notice the stencil shadows being interpolated by each others function and mask. Half-Life 2 uses the best form of these shadows that I have ever seen, and the best part is, it works well.

Luckily, with some tricky Hammer work, you will be able to block most of these if you ever create a situation like this[where you use beams].

In most situations though, like the crane part, most people are not even going to even notice it or care.

You can blend occular[crane] and shadow recievers[crate] flawlessly if you use a gl depth pass technique...but its pointless because its just a waste of render power and compile time. Not to mention the FPS cost.

"Carmack's Reverse" as it is commonly called, offers a reverse colsion fix and uses dynamic rendering, as you will see in DooM 3. This method eats up hardware, and nobody really needs it. You can do the same thing with light maps and proper dynamic depth rendering...but it just won't calculate everything on the fly.
 

Apos

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Er, okay. Right, I understood all that!
 

Polykarbon

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I am not a computer nerd...

sigh...I am...:p

uhh...All I meant to say was that Half-Life 2's lighting and shadows still kick ass?
 

Axyon

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So a shadow overlaps onto another when it shouldn't. The real question is - will you notice it when you're trying to crush Combine soldiers that are putting down some serious fire on you?
 

Varsity

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Lighting is Source's weak point. It's not a huge problem.
 

PvtRyan

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The new vids don't seem to be bothered anymore by the 'you're either lit or not'. Check the big video at 9:33, you see Gregori being partially lit and the rest in the dark. The lighting seems a lot better than in the Strider video for example.
 

MrWhite

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Varsity said:
Lighting is Source's weak point. It's not a huge problem.
And even for a weakpoint its considerably stronger than some games
 

Caminante

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Polykarbon said:
I created an example picture[in MSpaint] to show you guys how colted gl depth shadows work.

Colted depth stencil shadows

This would be a situation where you might notice the stencil shadows being interpolated by each others function and mask. Half-Life 2 uses the best form of these shadows that I have ever seen, and the best part is, it works well.

Luckily, with some tricky Hammer work, you will be able to block most of these if you ever create a situation like this[where you use beams].

In most situations though, like the crane part, most people are not even going to even notice it or care.

You can blend occular[crane] and shadow recievers[crate] flawlessly if you use a gl depth pass technique...but its pointless because its just a waste of render power and compile time. Not to mention the FPS cost.

"Carmack's Reverse" as it is commonly called, offers a reverse colsion fix and uses dynamic rendering, as you will see in DooM 3. This method eats up hardware, and nobody really needs it. You can do the same thing with light maps and proper dynamic depth rendering...but it just won't calculate everything on the fly.

This is regarding the last statement you made about Doom's 3 engine. Maybe we should all go back to play pong, who needs pretty graphics anyways? Or then with what purpose in the world did Valve create a brand new rendering image?

Ok, that little detail isn't much of a big issue, as a matter of fact, i don't even care. I do however admit to get rather frustrate when *cough* fanboys *cough* overlook all HL2's glitches and go pick on other people engine and what not. If you don't feel like spending money in upgrades, just don't. But do not state that, Carmack's method isn't really needed at all.
 

Mr. Redundant

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I didnt notice, I was too floored to notice anything... I guess I might nitpick once I cool down from my "OMFG ITS TEH HL2!!!!!!" but for right now, its pure bliss...

GIVE ME NOW DAMN YE VALVE

the only developer to practice Cruel and unusual punishment.
 

Polykarbon

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WTF are you talking about? I am not talking about DooM 3 itself. The lighting and shadowing blows anything else out of the water. I am talking about a shadow rendering technique...which DooM 3 doesn't need to use, because it uses advanced dynamic range lighting. HL2 uses scaled light maps and stencils, which cost more in compile time, but are faster[but don't look as great]. Do you even know that I mean when I say Carmacks reversion? Obviously not...or you would of got that. For DooMs atmosphere it is great, but the added effect eats up hardware. For most games, the effect isn't used or needed because you are going to have nothing short of 2.3 Ghz min requirements to play smoothly, unless you scale back your polygons.[Which DooM 3 is doing...and still looks freaking amazing]

Honestly...did you just assume random garble?
 

Caminante

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Polykarbon said:
WTF are you talking about? I am not talking about DooM 3 itself. The lighting and shadowing blows anything else out of the water. I am talking about a shadow rendering technique...which DooM 3 doesn't need to use, because it uses advanced dynamic range lighting. HL2 uses scaled light maps and stencils, which cost more in compile time, but are faster[but don't look as great]. Do you even know that I mean when I say Carmacks reversion? Obviously not...or you would of got that. For DooMs atmosphere it is great, but the added effect eats up hardware. For most games, the effect isn't used or needed because you are going to have nothing short of 2.3 Ghz min requirements to play smoothly, unless you scale back your polygons.[Which DooM 3 is doing...and still looks freaking amazing]

Honestly...did you just assume random garble?
Yep, Carmack's engine does not really need this feature. He just felt like adding it for the porpuse of being a jerk and eat people's hardware. :LOL:
 

B_MAN

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it's the beta
the shadows will be fixed before release, guarunteed
 

DarkStar

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B_MAN said:
it's the beta
the shadows will be fixed before release, guarunteed
I sure hope so. For some reason this shadows thing really bothers me. When you see the shadow of objects resting on a table going THROUGH the table it just looks like shit. C'mon, if Far Cry can get it right why can't HL2? I don't really know anything about graphics programming, but this just seems like a major issue. At least for me.
 

PvtRyan

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Caminante said:
Yep, Carmack's engine does not really need this feature. He just felt like adding it for the porpuse of being a jerk and eat people's hardware. :LOL:
Stop arguing with him, he obviously knows a whole lot more of this subject than you do.
 

Intamin

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Amen to that, brother. :)

Whether or not Valve does fix it, we will know soon enough. Someone could always e-mail 'em about it.
 
M

moppe

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One thing I noticed was that the container tilts over the body, IT'S SIMULATED.

No clips like in last years traptown.
 

Polykarbon

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Yep, Carmack's engine does not really need this feature. He just felt like adding it for the porpuse of being a jerk and eat people's hardware.
Sigh...that has nothing to do with what I said. Shadow routine algorithm code maybe?

meh...not even worth it.
 
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it's the beta
the shadows will be fixed before release, guarunteed
Uh, no. Stencil shadows are a fundamental part of source lighting. who freaking cares really. Id like to see the nit pickers actually NOT buy the game lol. see if they could do that.
 

famas_man

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Why do people have to be so discriminating when it comes to halflife 2? Saying that lighting is Sources weak point is understandable... but only if you are comparing it to the other features of Source. Very few games compare to hl2 for lighting. I was very impressed with the videos (even cs2 looks fun and I dont even like cs).

Some people are just overly critical... maybe because it's suh an exceptional game.
 

BaBaR

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moppe...
they said the traptown bug was a result of the demo and that it wouldnt happen in game. I assume the same for things like the crate here
 

Alec_85

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AFAIK, Gabe & several others @ Valve have claimed that this bug WILL BE fixed before the game is released. They did say that after last year's E3 at least. I doubt they have changed their mind. And I doubt it would eat away @ the FPS etc etc. HL2 is the only game I've ever seen that has ever had this kind of lighting problem. I think I would remember if a game had had such problems before ;) But maybe I'm completely wrong....
 
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CoreyGH

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I think this "shadows showing through solid objects" problem is a much bigger deal than some of you are making it out to be. At least, in the terms of multiplayer. If the sun is behind me, you are in front of me, and there is a wall between us, I want to be able to hide behind the wall. If my shadow shows THROUGH the wall and you can see it, well, that sucks big time.
 

DimitriPopov

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Alec_85 said:
AFAIK, Gabe & several others @ Valve have claimed that this bug WILL BE fixed before the game is released. They did say that after last year's E3 at least. I doubt they have changed their mind. And I doubt it would eat away @ the FPS etc etc. HL2 is the only game I've ever seen that has ever had this kind of lighting problem. I think I would remember if a game had had such problems before ;) But maybe I'm completely wrong....

You wouldnt remember it because its so minute , even when I do notice it I dont care after 2 seconds of 'hmph'. Ive seen it in a number of games , mostly in charecter shadows where you can see the outline of the seperate 'tubes' that make up limbs , such as from shoulde to elbow can be seen in the shadow , when it should just be the elbow and forearm that are seen (I cant explain it).
 

DimitriPopov

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CoreyGH said:
I think this "shadows showing through solid objects" problem is a much bigger deal than some of you are making it out to be. At least, in the terms of multiplayer. If the sun is behind me, you are in front of me, and there is a wall between us, I want to be able to hide behind the wall. If my shadow shows THROUGH the wall and you can see it, well, that sucks big time.

Have you seen any evidence of this? No me either. For one thing both of these objects are movable entities , and neither of them is a charecter.
 

Apos

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If the sun is behind me, you are in front of me, and there is a wall between us, I want to be able to hide behind the wall. If my shadow shows THROUGH the wall and you can see it, well, that sucks big time.
Shadows don't show through walls: they can get cast properly on all world geometry (looks awesome when they stretch out up a wall...)
 

Lobster

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CoreyGH said:
I think this "shadows showing through solid objects" problem is a much bigger deal than some of you are making it out to be. At least, in the terms of multiplayer. If the sun is behind me, you are in front of me, and there is a wall between us, I want to be able to hide behind the wall. If my shadow shows THROUGH the wall and you can see it, well, that sucks big time.
Half-Life 1's original release had blob shaddows and they were removed imediately because of that very bug, im sure valve have that little eventuality under control.

Personaly i think the overall lighting of the game looks nice, even if it is mainly static, but the only times they really need dynamic lights are for things such as the swinging legs on the rope, or when father gregori is running under those lamps, depends what sort of mood there trying to create.

As for the shaddows overlapping, stuff like that just doesnt register in my mind as a problem, so i cant comment lol
 

Apos

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HL2 is the only game I've ever seen that has ever had this kind of lighting problem.
That's because HL2 is the only non Doom3-type game to actually have so many physics objects that they are commonly resting on top of each other.

Anyways, this is a post from the Steam Forums in which I explain in detail the 4 major drawbacks when HL2 uses stencil shadows.

It might be possible to find some way to get them to:

-blend and combine without being additive on each other (problem one: like when two people's shadows overlap, and the overlapped area is doubly dark even though both shadows are cast by the same lightsource) or to...

-cast their "shadow" on other moveable objects (problem two: like when the magnet doesn't cast a shadow on the container) or at least...

-get occluded by moveable objects so as not show through each other (problem 3: like when the magnet shadow goes THROUGH the container and gets cast on the ground, or objects on a table cast shadows down through the table onto the floor) or to...

-not darken pre-rendered shadows (problem 4: like when a combine is walking in shadow cast by a single light, but his stencil shadow still shows up even DARKER inside the pre-rendered shadow),

But I wouldn't count on it. I don't know the techical details here: these 4 things could all be easy fixes, or they could be next to impossible. Only Valve can say for sure. Maybe some will be fixed by release, maybe some will be fixed in patches later, and maybe some cannot be fixed at all until the lighting engine is re-written.
 

Ahnteis

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C'mon, if Far Cry can get it right why can't HL2?
FC doesn't really have the same degree of environmental interaction either, and it already requires a quite beefy machine.

/HAS played FC.
 
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CoreyGH

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If not walls then it will certainly show through moveable boxcars, crates, barrels, and vehicles. That's unacceptable from a multiplayer standpoint.
 

Apos

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C'mon, if Far Cry can get it right why can't HL2?
Far Cry didn't have moveable tables, for instance: the stencils might have been cast on the table, but that was because it was pre-rendered world geometry, not an object you'd have to worry about shadowing in real time.
 

Styloid

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at Polykarbon:
So how difficult would it be to implement better lighting solutions into Source in the future; updates from Steam or mods? Would it be possible to add in better shadows and cut down physical interaction for a mod that would want to?
 

BlazeKun

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CoreyGH said:
If not walls then it will certainly show through moveable boxcars, crates, barrels, and vehicles. That's unacceptable from a multiplayer standpoint.
I agree with this completely. Say there's a moving train in a CS2 level. You go inside the train and your shadow shows up on the ground. You could be shot THROUGH the train walls and would die thanks to natural engine based wallhacks... That's not much fun IMO.

You guys are right that it doesn't matter that much in single player but for multiplayer it has major problems.
 

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DarkStar

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Apos said:
Far Cry didn't have moveable tables, for instance: the stencils might have been cast on the table, but that was because it was pre-rendered world geometry, not an object you'd have to worry about shadowing in real time.
Hmm...I seem to remember far cry having a bunch of movable items on top of other movable items, all of it cast shadows coorectly. Stuff on tables, soda cans on shelves, suitcases on top of boxes. I never saw the same problem I saw in the new HL2 videos.
 
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