Nazi US Marines?

CptStern

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The Marine Corps on Thursday once again did damage control after a photograph surfaced of a sniper team in Afghanistan posing in front of a flag with a logo resembling that of the notorious Nazi SS — a special unit that murdered millions of Jews, gypsies and others.

The Corps said in a statement that using the symbol was not acceptable.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/us-marines-nazi-ss_n_1265930.html?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=134290&ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

However, it was a naive mistake made by Marines who believed the SS symbol was meant to represent sniper scouts and never intended to associate themselves with a racist organization, said Maj. Gabrielle Chapin, a spokeswoman at Camp Pendleton.

The Marines in the image will not be disciplined because investigators determined there was no malicious intent, Chapin said.
ya ok. an elite marine team had no idea the SS symbol was associated with the nazis. that seems totally believable
 

mechanicallizard

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Ive seen this in a few other forums now, its just putting the Corps in a bad light, While everyone is screaming 'OH SHIT NAZI AMERICAN ****S'

How many realise this is actually the scout sniper logo, has been for a few decades now? This is nothing new, and does not have to do with anything Nazi. It was a big deal in the 80's, appeared again in the 90's, and now again in 2012. Strange though that the Jews and other non-white team members have never complained about it that anyone has heard?

Anyway, just google scout sniper logos and youll see.

Also, Id like to say that I do not necessarily agree with it, it is far too easily taken as the German SS logo, and perhaps should be reviewed. But the thing that annoys me is how its been around for years, and everyones now gonna scream and cry about it. Idiots who havent done any background checks. Just another excuse to have a go at the military, never mind the fact that theyre one of its most elite units, have been for decades, and have been unappreciated by many for that time.


 

CptStern

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the military doesnt agree with you

The inspector general at I Marine Expeditionary Force at Pendleton was made aware of the “SS” flag photograph in November, said Capt. Gregory Wolf, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters. The Marines involved were ordered to stop using the logo.

The Corps has addressed the use of the SS logo before, however. A PowerPoint presentation posted on a Marine Corps website said it should not be used in any tattoos. The logo was used by German special police during World War II and is still used by neo-Nazis and graffiti to characterize anti-Semitism, white supremacy and facism, according to the presentation.

The MRFF said Thursday in a letter sent to Commandant Gen. Jim Amos, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top Pentagon officials that it was contacted by 45 active-duty Marines concerned about the photographs.

“The implication of these photographs, if true, should be readily apparent,” the letter said. “If the use of the Nazi insignia has been, in any way, condoned or tolerated by the Marine Corp.[sic], the implications are abhorrent to everything for which our country is fighting and the constitutional principles for which it stands.”
there's no mention of the sniper scouts at all


http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/02/marine-scout-snipers-nazi-ss-logo-020912
 

mechanicallizard

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Well, like i said, it should probably be reviewed, it is far to similar to the SS logo.

Its just appeared at a bad time for the Corps, what with this video circulating the net. Apparently this picture is quite old, and there are many more, so for it to suddenly appear in the middle of the Corps trying to deal with said video, is rather 'convenient' to some people.

I just dont like it when everyone jumps on the bandwagon to hate on the military. One of those things which really gets me going.


Although, situations such as these obviously need to be dealt with.

there's no mention of the sniper scouts at all
Edit: the men in the photo are scout snipers
 

CptStern

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I just dont like it when everyone jumps on the bandwagon to hate on the military. One of those things which really gets me going.
you're projecting your bias and deflecting blame by saying they dont deserve criticism when incidents like this and others proves that they do deserve it. it's not bashing it's reacting to news of the marines behaving inappropriately


Although, situations such as these obviously need to be dealt with.
ok so lets not sugarcoat it and defer blame. they're claiming they were ignorant of the the symbolism behind the flag which is utterly ridiculous.



the men in the photo are scout snipers
what I meant was that it's not an official logo. the military didnt point out that the logo is scount snipers they pointed out that it was a nazi symbol
 

mechanicallizard

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Well I pretty much agree with you Stern. It needs to be dealt with, and the fact that these guys, highly trained and not stupid by any stretch, would deny knowing anything about its symbolism is absurd.

What I meant by 'jumping on the bandwagon' is that a lot of the time these things just turn into 'lets bash the marines' by the majority who have seen/read these videos/articles, the mistakes of a few Marines reflect on the whole Corps, and then we get the idiots calling to disband the Corps and yadda yadda. Its just giving them more ammo.

And I have to say why, why, especially post abu-graib etc, take photos? where did they think this would lead?


what I meant was that it's not an official logo. the military didnt point out that the logo is scount snipers they pointed out that it was a nazi symbol
And yes ok, but most units have an unofficial patch/logo, this has been a part of theirs for years.
 

CptStern

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Well I pretty much agree with you Stern. It needs to be dealt with, and the fact that these guys, highly trained and not stupid by any stretch, would deny knowing anything about its symbolism is absurd.

What I meant by 'jumping on the bandwagon' is that a lot of the time these things just turn into 'lets bash the marines' by the majority who have seen/read these videos/articles, the mistakes of a few Marines reflect on the whole Corps, and then we get the idiots calling to disband the Corps and yadda yadda. Its just giving them more ammo.

And I have to say why, why, especially post abu-graib etc, take photos? where did they think this would lead?
I think criticism is fairly measured and most people know one incident doesnt represent the entire marine corps.


And yes ok, but most units have an unofficial patch/logo, this has been a part of theirs for years.
I dont think that really matters as the majority would associate that logo with the SS. the fact that they deliberatley took the SS logo, unchanged probably says something about their pov

as one of the commenters on the first article put it:

This incident was neither a mistake nor an exception. It was due to the high regard that many in the US military have for the German army and the SS. Their embrace of the German armed forces of the WW II era is supported by books, television shows and university courses that portray the Wehrmacht and the SS as superior fighting organizati­ons and gloss over their criminal activities­. It is fed by the cult of the Eastern Front that is widespread among the American public. University courses, books, especially those by scholars, and television shows that lend credibilit­y to these dangerous ideas should be exposed for what they are.
I tend to agree as I've seen it before

TLDR: I accept what you're saying and while I think it's a possibility there was some confusion it would pretty far fetched to believe they didnt know it was a Nazi symbol. have they never seen Raiders of the Lost Ark or played Return to Castle Wolfenstein
 

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It is fed by the cult of the Eastern Front that is widespread among the American public. University courses, books, especially those by scholars, and television shows that lend credibilit­y to these dangerous ideas should be exposed for what they are.
I'm curious, what tv shows glorify/portray in a positive light the nazis or the SS?
 

mechanicallizard

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This incident was neither a mistake nor an exception. It was due to the high regard that many in the US military have for the German army and the SS. Their embrace of the German armed forces of the WW II era is supported by books, television shows and university courses that portray the Wehrmacht and the SS as superior fighting organizati­ons and gloss over their criminal activities­. It is fed by the cult of the Eastern Front that is widespread among the American public. University courses, books, especially those by scholars, and television shows that lend credibilit­y to these dangerous ideas should be exposed for what they are.
What Remus said, and;

Well, I wasnt raised or schooled in America so I cant really comment on that. But, when you look at it from the militarys point of view, can you learn from the German army?
Of course - they changing warfare completely, and will always be brought up in training. Holding them in a high regard doesnt necessarily mean theyre all waiting to shave their heads and shout HEIL OBAMA. It can also be seen as respect for the enemy: how many fighting forces have been feared as much as the German army? (from a tactical standpoint, warcrimes aside)

But like I said: Im not American, and dont know of the influence in University, tv etc
 

Tagaziel

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Using sig runes has been totally an unconscious choice. Anyone believing this explanation should be shot for terminal stupidity (assuming he doesn't suffocate first, after forgetting to breathe).

Furthermore, stupidity and training aren't mutually exclusive. You can be a highly trained idiot, just as you can be an untrained genius. If you don't know that two sig runes represented the Schutzstaffel during World War II, then you're a historical idiot. If you think using two sig runes that represented the Schutzstaffel as part of your logo, you're an exemplary idiot. If you think it's perfectly excusable, as long as you don't take photos, switch off the iPod reminding you to breathe.
 
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How are you supposed to know nowadays unless you research history/wikipedia on your own time? Not everyone does that. I didn't know the SS bolts symbol until I saw it on a white gangster when I was a kid. For the longest I thought it was a prison/gang symbol solely, then later I learned more about the German SS.

Schools dont go in depth about the SS, they just talk about the Nazis and how WW2 happened. Games and other pop culture dont feature it that often anymore because they want to sell in Germany.

I really doubt they knew it was a Nazi group considering it looks like they got a couple hispanic guys in their picture.

I guarantee you if I showed half my friends the symbol they'd identify it as a gang symbol rather than a historical WW2 nazi symbol. People just don't know what's up, ignorance doesn't mean someone's stupid.
 

CptStern

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How are you supposed to know nowadays unless you research history/wikipedia on your own time? Not everyone does that. I didn't know the SS bolts symbol until I saw it on a white gangster when I was a kid. For the longest I thought it was a prison/gang symbol solely, then later I learned more about the German SS.
key point being you were a kid at the time. these marines are not kids but rather members of an elite force. knowing that it's far far far more probable that they deliberately associated themselves with another historical and immensly popular elite team. I mean besides the green berets it doesnt get more popular than the SS

have these people never seen any Indiana Jones movie or Hogan's heroes or any war movie about ww2? that symbol is almost as well known as the swastika. to plead ignorance over it's originas just doesnt wash when the people pleading ignorance are themselves members of an elite military force
Schools dont go in depth about the SS, they just talk about the Nazis and how WW2 happened. Games and other pop culture dont feature it that often anymore because they want to sell in Germany.
ya no, Return of Castle Wolfenstein had an edited version just for the german market. the non german version had SS symbols absolutely everywhere. so did Saboteur. a more recent ww2 game

I really doubt they knew it was a Nazi group considering it looks like they got a couple hispanic guys in their picture.

I guarantee you if I showed half my friends the symbol they'd identify it as a gang symbol rather than a historical WW2 nazi symbol.
because they're chivatos? they are not the same as members of an elite military group that might have one or two latinos in it.

People just don't know what's up, ignorance doesn't mean someone's stupid.
it amazes me that you would pick the least likely excuse and ignore the most obvious one.
 
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Protip: they've used this unofficially for years.

Protip: the sole reason higher ups told them not display it anymore was because of the potential for media backlash like this.

It's pretty kneejerk imo. I had French teachers get in a rage if I said "Ess ess" when spelling out words in grade school. The marine culture constantly congratulates/promotes itself as being comprised of hardened killers, especially scout snipers. They literally call themselves Hunters of Gunmen; basically hunters of humans. But it's more offensive that they borrow two stylised S's that spells out their name?
 

CptStern

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yes it is. so much so that other marines complained about it

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and other top Pentagon officials that it was contacted by 45 active-duty Marines concerned about the photographs.
 

mechanicallizard

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45 Marines out of....

As of 2010 the United States Marine Corps included just under 203,000 active duty Marines and just under 40,000 reserve Marines
 

CptStern

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the point is that some marines found it offensive enough to complain that doesnt mean there wasnt more of them that didnt complain but felt the same way. even if no one had complained because everyone on the inside knows what it stands doesnt make it right; they're still representing the US and as such should be aware of what cultural taboos exist in the US
 

Ennui

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Sorry but there is just no excuse for our armed forces using a Nazi symbol - one that is second in notoriety and horrendously negative implications only to the swastika itself - in any official or unofficial capacity. Regardless of whether they were aware of what it represents or not.

Also given that most of the military is from the lower end of the American population from an economic perspective, I find it hard to believe that NOBODY knew it for what it was. The SS symbol is quite common in all sorts of neo-Nazi and white supremacist movements and gangs. I doubt you could find a medium or maximum security prison in the whole US without a couple of inmates flying those colors.
 

Absinthe

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We're taking it back from the Nazis.

Is that so wrong?
 

Remus

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We're taking it back from the Nazis.
Taking it back? Maybe that would work a hundred years from now. However right now when I see that symbol I think WW2, nazis, SS. It's just the way it is for everyone that knows even a little bit about history.
 

Absinthe

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Wasn't a really serious comment. It would be nice though to live in a world where such imagery (including the swastika, which the Nazis didn't invent but appropriate) was divorced from the notion of inherent Nazi ownership.

I don't have any problems with the photo, but I see why others do and I'm sure the military's tolerance of such symbols will be adjusted given the hubbub over it. It just strikes me as one of those weird "military things" that make people outside the service scratch their heads. There was a lot to learn from and appreciate about the SS military that has greatly shaped US forces today, and I'm sure the symbol's use is out of some strange respect thing rather than tacit approval of mass murder.

The "I didn't make the Nazi connection" defense is balls though.
 
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key point being you were a kid at the time. these marines are not kids but rather members of an elite force. knowing that it's far far far more probable that they deliberately associated themselves with another historical and immensly popular elite team. I mean besides the green berets it doesnt get more popular than the SS
I know we know who it is but being completely and 100% honest a lot of the people I know dont even know what ****ing year WW2 was in. Being an elite soldier has nothing to do with knowing lots of history or who won the battle of Dunkirk, etc.

have these people never seen any Indiana Jones movie or Hogan's heroes or any war movie about ww2? that symbol is almost as well known as the swastika. to plead ignorance over it's originas just doesnt wash when the people pleading ignorance are themselves members of an elite military force

ya no, Return of Castle Wolfenstein had an edited version just for the german market. the non german version had SS symbols absolutely everywhere. so did Saboteur. a more recent ww2 game
Listen man at the risk of being flamed- I've never seen that movie, that show, nor even ever played that game. I know what they are because I'm net savvy, but most people my age have no idea what those are. I'm 23 and I'm sure most of those guys are within my age range.



because they're chivatos? they are not the same as members of an elite military group that might have one or two latinos in it.
Come on man that's a little ****ed up. They're regular ass people and like I said, 50% would probably say a gang symbol, maybe 25% no clue, and the other 25% would know it's a Nazi symbol from WW2.


it amazes me that you would pick the least likely excuse and ignore the most obvious one.
Because the idea that 'a large group of people are secret Nazis trying to revive the SS even though they have people of various races in their group' sounds a lot less likely than 'some dumbass young adults didn't know what SS bolts came from originally and thought it meant scout sniper'. It's not super well known to my generation. Most young people in the US dont even know what the holocaust is.


NOTE: I'm not saying they SHOULD use it nor was the picture okay. But this idea of secret conspiracies or secret nods of respect to the Nazi SS tactics, etc. That's what's for the birds. How about a little common sense here now.
 

mechanicallizard

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I know we know who it is but being completely and 100% honest a lot of the people I know dont even know what ****ing year WW2 was in. Being an elite soldier has nothing to do with knowing lots of history or who won the battle of Dunkirk, etc.
They will know, unit history is part of basic training, encourages esprit de corps and that shit. You honestly think WW2 wont come up?
 

Maestro

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Do you guys realize how dumb most scout snipers are? They are some professional mother****ers in the field, but off-duty they are a bunch of retards. No offense, but Rakurai's point is well-made: they are good at shooting people, that doesn't make them worldly or intelligent. It makes them good at their job. I cannot tell you how many stories I've heard second and third hand about how guys in Marines Special Forces are stupid/crazy/both.
 

CptStern

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I know we know who it is but being completely and 100% honest a lot of the people I know dont even know what ****ing year WW2 was in. Being an elite soldier has nothing to do with knowing lots of history or who won the battle of Dunkirk, etc.
it's not about knowing history. you dont have know anything about history to identify the swastika, the SS bolts are just as recongnisable. and it really doesnt matter if you've watched those programs or not because unless you're been living with some as of yet uncontacted tribe in deepest borneo chances are you know what Nazis are


RakuraiTemjin said:
Listen man at the risk of being flamed- I've never seen that movie, that show, nor even ever played that game. I know what they are because I'm net savvy, but most people my age have no idea what those are. I'm 23 and I'm sure most of those guys are within my age range.
it's not a niche thing. it's in our cultural consciousness




they wore what is probably the most iconic uniform in military history. how can you not hear Nazi and think of this uniform?






Come on man that's a little ****ed up. They're regular ass people and like I said, 50% would probably say a gang symbol, maybe 25% no clue, and the other 25% would know it's a Nazi symbol from WW2.




RakuraiTemjin said:
Because the idea that 'a large group of people are secret Nazis trying to revive the SS even though they have people of various races in their group' sounds a lot less likely than 'some dumbass young adults didn't know what SS bolts came from originally and thought it meant scout sniper'.
what? where the hell are you getting that?

RakuraiTemjin said:
It's not super well known to my generation. Most young people in the US dont even know what the holocaust is.
you should probably back that up. schindlers list, saving private ryan; not exactly obscure movies


RakuraiTemjin said:
NOTE: I'm not saying they SHOULD use it nor was the picture okay. But this idea of secret conspiracies or secret nods of respect to the Nazi SS tactics, etc. That's what's for the birds. How about a little common sense here now.
you're the only one suggesting that. it's not a conspiracy but as the commentor suggested it's admiration because the SS were the elite force of nazi germany
 
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Wow. I am very ****ing disappointed. Basic unit history is a part of training, always has been. So Im lost on this one.
Yeah it sucks. Basic history itself is part of regular school training yet most young people don't know jack squat.


Stern, I simply think you underestimate how little the American youth know about WW2 or that entire period. It's pretty bad. Yes, you and I know those things- the general public under 25, ehhh not everyone does nor gets it. Young people my age associate the swastika as a racist symbol, not necessarily a historical one nor even with Germany itself. The SS bolts themselves, even with myself, first make me think of gangs, then Nazis (and thats only because I know about the history)

CptStern said:
you're the only one suggesting that. it's not a conspiracy but as the commentor suggested it's admiration because the SS were the elite force of nazi germany

"secret nods of respect to SS tactics" is the exact same thing as "admiration because the SS were elite units"
 

CptStern

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no I dont underestimate how stupid youth can be but you overestimate how stupid they can be by implying that ALL of them didnt have a clue
 

Maestro

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The ones that do probably just don't care, Stern. Nazis were bad, but the average WWII vet retired 60 years ago.
 
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no I dont underestimate how stupid youth can be but you overestimate how stupid they can be by implying that ALL of them didnt have a clue
Agree to disagree then. I'm sticking with my first instinct that these guys were just ignorant of the SS bolts origin. It's not explained today to young people, you have to see from my American generation's education standards and pop culture, it's simply not addressed like it was even 15 years ago.
 

Tagaziel

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Ignorance is not an excuse for anything. Particularly historical ignorance.
 

15357

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Well, they're marines. They're crazy and should be left alone until you need things dead.
 

Krynn72

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Ha, I like how they weren't satisfied with just stealing the lightning bolt SS insignia, but had to incorporate the 3rd SS Totenkopf skull insignia as well. Just to squeeze out the extra bit of Nazism from their logo.

Makes me think of this:
 

Tagaziel

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Do you have a solution? Have you ever met the average enlisted man? They're none too bright.
I don't think opening Google and pressing three keys ("S", "S" and "Enter") requires a Master's Degree in IT.
 

Bad^Hat

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I'm not sure you understand how ignorance works. It means you actually don't know a thing exists, and therefore have no reason to google it in the first place.
 

Tagaziel

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No, what you're talking about is terminal stupidity. Ignorance is curable. Stupidity is not.
 

Bad^Hat

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Thanks for confirming you don't understand.
 
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