Iraqi Civilian Massacre: how it happened

Lemonking

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read the article idiot,


"The investigation of the attack in Ishaqi concluded that the U.S. troops followed normal procedures in raising the level of force after they came under fire while approaching a building where they believed was an Al Qaeda terrorist was hiding, said Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S military spokesman"


Fox News,is a totaly difffernt channel trhen FOx9 thats a local channel.
 

Solaris

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Lemonking said:
Fox News,is a totaly difffernt channel trhen FOx9 thats a local channel.
Read the magical porn thread in off topic.
 

99.vikram

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US, please stop! Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran. Isn't there enough trouble already?
 

Lemonking

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99.vikram said:
US, please stop! Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran. Isn't there enough trouble already?


oh ok lets just press this button and it will stop :|
get a grip.
 

mortiz

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Lemonking said:
oh ok lets just press this button and it will stop :|
get a grip.
I fail to see what the article you posted proves? Other than the military is trying to cover their own asses. I haven't heard anything regarding weapons on the scene, why would the U.S. military take all of the weapons away and then leave the scene? Surely if the militaries chain of events did take place they should have secured the area and waited for backup to arrive? But they simply left, with no evidence to back-up their claims. So we have the words of the Iraqi civilians vs the words the soldiers who were there. Who would you rather believe? So the military is saying that their own boys didn't purposefully kill some civilians which could have a massive effect on the popularity(if there's any left) of this war? Wow, sorry if it doesn't inspire me with confidence. Try an independent investigation first.
 

gh0st

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if true they should be punished as they did to their victims.

however i stress that typically people are innocent until proven guilty. i'll wait until the facts are sorted. though i do find it laughable that everyone assumes the soldiers are guilty by virtue of the fact that they are american troops.
 

CptStern

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nah, it's just your collective persecution complex

- eyewitness accounts makes it incredibly hard to deny their guilt
- they tried to cover it up twice
- your own government's initial report says there's strong evidence that they did indeed murder them in cold blood
- babies/young children were shot at point blank range in the chest/head ...I'd like to see you explain that away ..perhaps they were armed and the marines feared for their lives
 

_Z_Ryuken

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CptStern said:
- babies/young children were shot at point blank range in the chest/head ...I'd like to see you explain that away
Sticking with my initial thought.
Super racism/ mini genocide.
 

gh0st

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CptStern said:
nah, it's just your collective persecution complex

- eyewitness accounts makes it incredibly hard to deny their guilt
- they tried to cover it up twice
- your own government's initial report says there's strong evidence that they did indeed murder them in cold blood
- babies/young children were shot at point blank range in the chest/head ...I'd like to see you explain that away ..perhaps they were armed and the marines feared for their lives
i wasnt there... you werent either. so i cant explain anything, and neither can you. i simply choose to place my trust in the most trust worthy government in the world instead of a bunch of mud-hut dwelling terrorists.
 

_Z_Ryuken

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Wait wait wait.

Which government is the most trustworthy government in the world again?

And are you saying this news came from mud-hut dwelling terrorists?
 

_Z_Ryuken

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Lemonking said:
gh0st ftw, I wonder what would have happend if the cops didnt catch these guys,and they blew up..lets your office building the people that you worked with the last few years are dead,there body parts all over the break room...would you still say "aww poor Muslims :( nobody treats them right so I can understand why they blow shit up"

btw, younger Muslims here in Orange County seem to doing fine, and we have multiple muslim community centers. so dont be going around and saying Muslims get miss treated.
Are you looking for the Canada terrorists thread?
 

Sulkdodds

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Gh0st said:
however i stress that typically people are innocent until proven guilty. i'll wait until the facts are sorted. though i do find it laughable that everyone assumes the soldiers are guilty by virtue of the fact that they are american troops.
I thought people were assuming they were guilty because:

- they were human
- this has happened before throughout history
- all the evidence points to them being guilty

As opposed to 'THEY WERE AMERICANS = MURDERERS'
 

CptStern

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gh0st said:
i wasnt there... you werent either. so i cant explain anything, and neither can you.
no, but I can look at the available evidence, which is based on first hand accounts from eyewitnesses and soldiers called in to mop up



gh0st said:
i simply choose to place my trust in the most trust worthy government in the world
lol! ya, truly trust worthy, what the hell was I thinking?


gh0st said:
instead of a bunch of mud-hut dwelling terrorists.

they must be getting pretty desperate if they have to resort to conscripting babies

washington post said:
In the house with Ali and his 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three middle-age men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law, and four children: 4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia.
Perhaps the US marine who gunned down everyone in the room believed Asia was a threat
 
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At some point on Nov. 19, Marines in an armored convoy arrived at Haditha's hospital. They placed the bodies of the victims in the garden of the hospital and left without explanation, said Mohammed al-Hadithi, one of the hospital officials who helped carry the bodies inside.
The Insurgents have had just as worse massacres, and many that have occured before this one. I find it interesting nobody makes a big deal about those, so now I will.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1652284.htm < - 30-40 bodies, Iraqi Policemen, Children, several animals, shot or tortured to death
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1433722,00.html < - Around 30-60 bodies found in Iraq, signs of torture before execution
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/14/AR2006031400273.html < - Around 40 executed, several beheaded
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/16/iraq.main/ < - 55 Executed by Al-Qaeda
 

CptStern

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so how does that excuse what the US marines did? or will you just ignore these atrocites because "the insurgents do it too"
 

gick

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K e r b e r o s said:
The Insurgents have had just as worse massacres, and many that have occured before this one. I find it interesting nobody makes a big deal about those, so now I will.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200605/s1652284.htm < - 30-40 bodies, Iraqi Policemen, Children, several animals, shot or tortured to death
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1433722,00.html < - Around 30-60 bodies found in Iraq, signs of torture before execution
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/14/AR2006031400273.html < - Around 40 executed, several beheaded
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/16/iraq.main/ < - 55 Executed by Al-Qaeda
Also, as tragic as the examples you posted are, its to be expected from psychos like AlQuada, whereas the US soldiers are supposed to be there to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I mean WTF?
 
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To CptStern:
so how does that excuse what the US marines did? or will you just ignore these atrocites because "the insurgents do it too"
So let me get this straight. You're assuming, [ and nothing more ], that the reason I cited massacres commited by Al-Qaeda in Iraq was to excuse another massacre commited by Coalition Forces around Haditha, as the topic was about.

Am I right?

Let me argue this CptStern. Maybe I was'nt. Suppose I was angry at the very idea you could go along and blast almost specifically, US mistakes, massacres, and mishaps throughout the war in Iraq, trumping on the woes of atrocities and unjustified wars without second also thinking about the many hundreds to thousands executed by the Insurgents.
 
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Also, as tragic as the examples you posted are, its to be expected from psychos like AlQuada, whereas the US soldiers are supposed to be there to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I mean WTF?
Hey, I'm just as upset as you are Gick. Make no mistake about that. But also please, consider the 100,000 US/Coalition Soldiers out there that were'nt involved in this atrocity, and try they're hardest to prevent them.

The article however, is the focus of the Haditha massacre, and to respect what happened I will only say that I too share your disgust.
 

Yuri

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CptStern said:
so how does that excuse what the US marines did? or will you just ignore these atrocites because "the insurgents do it too"
...when did he say it was an excuse, Stern?

Oh right: He didn't.
 

CptStern

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K e r b e r o s said:
So let me get this straight. You're assuming, [ and nothing more ], that the reason I cited massacres commited by Al-Qaeda in Iraq was to excuse what a US Marine Detachment was responsible for?

Am I right?

Let me argue this CptStern. Maybe I was'nt. Suppose I was angry at the very idea you could go along and blast almost specifically, US mistakes, massacres, and mishaps throughout the war in Iraq, trumping on the woes of atrocities and unjustified wars without second also thinking about the many hundreds to thousands executed by the Insurgents?
dont asume as you have no idea who I am or what I think

the US is bound by international law, US law, geneva conventions, they broke those laws when they unilaterally decided to invade a nation under false and fabricated justifications, they marched into iraq under the banner of humanitarianism yet they dont exactly live up to it now do they?


again, will you ignore those iraqi children who didnt have a chance to politicise anything because they were truely innocent? ..will you ignore their deaths just to placate whatever partisan political ideology you adhere to? Or do the deaths only matter when they support your POV?


Erestheux said:
...when did he say it was an excuse, Stern?

Oh right: He didn't.
it's implied ..this is his first post in this thread, instead of commenting on the topic at hand he posted examples of how the insurgency targets civlians ..He IS excusing their actions by saying that it's not without precedent on the other side ..as if the killing of civilians by insurgents makes it alright for the opposing forces to do the same
 

Mr-Fusion

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Sewing the seeds, sewing the seeds. Steadily sewing the seeds.

"Why do they hate us!! I don't understand! September 11 was unjustified! We'd never do that to them! We're not that primitive and mindless!"

Sewing the seeds
 

Yuri

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When is he ignoring ANYTHING, stern?

He only stated that sometimes it is breezed over that the insurgents also commit atrocities. Never once did he ignore that the US commits them, too. Is every post in this thread supposed to say "The US is horrible" under it?

Come on, man.
 

CptStern

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Erestheux said:
When is he ignoring ANYTHING, stern?

He only stated that sometimes it is breezed over that the insurgents also commit atrocities. Never once did he ignore that the US commits them, too. Is every post in this thread supposed to say "The US is horrible" under it?

Come on, man.

please ..if I had done the same I'm sure someone would have accused me of ignoring insurgent caused deaths

this tactic is often used by kerberos ..he doesnt post on topic in these sort of threads, he posts links to articles that shows deaths commited by the other side ..which doesnt say not a single iota of how he feels on the particular issue except for the fact that by comparing it he is in fact justifying their actions
 
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dont asume as you have no idea who I am or what I think
CptStern, I can tell your a good man. You care for people an entire way accross the globe, in a continent most Americans won't be bothered to travel to, in a country most Americans can't find on a world map, and that to me friend, speaks volumes.

We just want you to also notice that they're victims out there alongside the ones at Haditha who had different stories, lives, and killers ... and that should also not be forgotten.

Thats all.
 

Yuri

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CptStern said:
please ..if I had done the same I'm sure someone would have accused me of ignoring insurgent caused deaths

this tactic is often used by kerberos ..he doesnt post on topic in these sort of threads, he posts links to articles that shows deaths commited by the other side ..which doesnt say not a single iota of how he feels on the particular issue except for the fact that by comparing it he is in fact justifying their actions
...that doesn't matter. The fact remains that he didn't make the connection.

If anyone else made the same post, I would have attributed it to them commenting on how war is hell. Justifying the actions of these murderous US soldiers would never have crossed my mind.


Stern, you seriously are a great debater and very knowledgable about all this stuff. But you have one major huge weakness, and that is personal vendetta. It doesn't seem to matter what your enemies post, if it says "Kerberos" or "gh0st," the post is immediately a lie filled with racism and extremist nationalism. It really detracts from your argument.
 

Gray Fox

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K e r b e r o s said:
Hey, I'm just as upset as you are Gick. Make no mistake about that. But also please, consider the 100,000 US/Coalition Soldiers out there that were'nt involved in this atrocity, and try they're hardest to prevent them.

The article however, is the focus of the Haditha massacre, and to respect what happened I will only say that I too share your disgust.
Would you also consider the many other insurgent that only target foreign hostile occupators in their country, like jubba? I didn't think so.
 

Yuri

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Gray Fox said:
Would you also consider the many other insurgent that only target foreign hostile occupators in their country, like jubba? I didn't think so.
Why wouldn't he?

I would...

There is too much ridiculous assuming going on.
 

Sulkdodds

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I've never heard them mention them.

Look, Kerberos, what the hell was the point of posting that if not to at least partially attempt to excuse the actions of these marines? It's not at all relevant if 'the other side' (yeah, because there's only two) commits massacres. They are the evil bastard crazy nutso terrorist bastards. The US are supposed to be the friendly humanitarian liberator.

"This should not be forgotten." What are you talking about? People do make a big deal about insurgent massacres - you do, for a start. The only person who attempts to marginalise the part of the insurgents in atrocities is Solaris, no matter how much he denies it.

So why post it at all? Because you wanted to draw attention to the fact that the insurgency are bastards as well? That's the same damn thing - 'look, the enemies are evil too. You're just picking on the Americans'.

Well, no shit Sherlock - the US are supposedly there to end a brutal and human-rights abusing regime. They are supposedly there to stop horrible things from happening. They are supposedly there to save the people of Iraq. This is not liberating or saving anybody. You accuse Stern of consistently focusing on solely American atrocities - but guess what? They're the ones that should be being criticised! The terrorists are terrorists. They're maniacs. This is what they do. The US are a supposedly moral government with scruples.

And no, this doesn't represent all the soldiers. But it does represent a failure of the US army to actually impress upon its soldiers any sense of ethical conduct. The US army are responsible - responsible for every man and woman they employ. That's their whole central tenet. What with the veritable cornucopia of reports of brutality coming out of Iraq, it is quite hard to see such things as entirely isolated incidents. Shit is happening over there; the sheer volume of stories coming out of the region speaks volumes.

So what was the point of posting that?
There was no point, other than to state: "hey, stop picking on the Americans. Look, the insurgents do it to!" There is no other possible purpose, niether is there any other possible effect. You want to start a thread condeming insurgents? Good luck, but I don't think you'll find many who'll argue against you - whatever you might think, it seems generally taken for granted that they're 'bad people'.
 

Laivasse

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Sulkdodds said:
I've never heard them mention them.

Look, Kerberos, what the hell was the point of posting that if not to at least partially attempt to excuse the actions of these marines? It's not at all relevant if 'the other side' (yeah, because there's only two) commits massacres. They are the evil bastard crazy nutso terrorist bastards. The US are supposed to be the friendly humanitarian liberator.

"This should not be forgotten." What are you talking about? People do make a big deal about insurgent massacres - you do, for a start. The only person who attempts to marginalise the part of the insurgents in atrocities is Solaris, no matter how much he denies it.

So why post it at all? Because you wanted to draw attention to the fact that the insurgency are bastards as well? That's the same damn thing - 'look, the enemies are evil too. You're just picking on the Americans'.

Well, no shit Sherlock - the US are supposedly there to end a brutal and human-rights abusing regime. They are supposedly there to stop horrible things from happening. They are supposedly there to save the people of Iraq. This is not liberating or saving anybody. You accuse Stern of consistently focusing on solely American atrocities - but guess what? They're the ones that should be being criticised! The terrorists are terrorists. They're maniacs. This is what they do. The US are a supposedly moral government with scruples.

And no, this doesn't represent all the soldiers. But it does represent a failure of the US army to actually impress upon its soldiers any sense of ethical conduct. The US army are responsible - responsible for every man and woman they employ. That's their whole central tenet. What with the veritable cornucopia of reports of brutality coming out of Iraq, it is quite hard to see such things as entirely isolated incidents. Shit is happening over there; the sheer volume of stories coming out of the region speaks volumes.

So what was the point of posting that?
There was no point, other than to state: "hey, stop picking on the Americans. Look, the insurgents do it to!" There is no other possible purpose, niether is there any other possible effect. You want to start a thread condeming insurgents? Good luck, but I don't think you'll find many who'll argue against you - whatever you might think, it seems generally taken for granted that they're 'bad people'.
^^^Everything I wanted to say. Using this thread to point out examples of atrocities committed by insurgents is comparable to, for example, linking to a story about a policeman getting shot in the middle of a debate about the Jean Charles De Menezes shooting.
 

CptStern

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Erestheux said:
...that doesn't matter. The fact remains that he didn't make the connection.

If anyone else made the same post, I would have attributed it to them commenting on how war is hell.

I agree

Erestheux said:
Justifying the actions of these murderous US soldiers would never have crossed my mind.
I agree .."if anyone else made the same post"


Erestheux said:
Stern, you seriously are a great debater and very knowledgable about all this stuff. But you have one major huge weakness, and that is personal vendetta. It doesn't seem to matter what your enemies post, if it says "Kerberos" or "gh0st," the post is immediately a lie filled with racism and extremist nationalism. It really detracts from your argument.
that's not entirely true ..I really do try to be civil but more often than not other member's similiar POV are ignored in favour of attacking mine ...so you really cant fault me for being a little defensive and maybe even a little annoyed at having to constantly trade volleys into what amounts to little more than nit picking my points to death in the hopes of masking the real issue at hand

and I dont think I'm all that great a debater ..my grammar is atrocious, spelling mistakes, run on sentences, half-formulated statements and hopelessly obscure terminology that sometimes detracts from what my message is ...it also feeds the trolls as I tend to be verbose in a vain attempt at getting my point across
 

Yuri

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Eh, who cares, as long as its legible.

I dunno, it just makes you seem more fair if you give enemies the benefit of the doubt. No matter who the poster is, I try to picture them as somebody I don't know. That way I won't jump on people I don't like, nor will I just agree with people I like. But whatev, that's just me.

I don't really agree, though, Sulkdodds. There was so much anti-American shit in this thread, I think it deserved something to compare itself to to some extent. Just to show that both sides commit atrocities...
 

Sulkdodds

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I think it was balanced out pretty well, Yuri. I mean, Ludah was arguing strongly for individual soldiers and in general I percieved this thread as more 'anti random-c*nts-killing-civilians' rather 'anti-american'.

Besides, it's not like a thread being 'anti-american' is actually any detriment to it. If people are anti-american there's generally a reason. You often see people shout 'yeah well YOU HATE AMERICA' like that's any kind of blot on their argument. Well, sorry, it's not. If your view is that America as a whole and its behaviour has been consistently detrimental to the state of the world and if you're backing that up with argument then yes, you are anti-american, and that's perfectly valid.

It's about right that this thread is 'anti-american'. I would expect any discussion about any group of soldiers who are the responsibility of any army which could be said to represent any country would be full of strong feelings against the country in question.
 

Yuri

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It's not valid to use this as proof of your anti-American attitude, though.
 

Zeus

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sinkoman said:
How so?

By shooting up a village full of Iraqis?

I don't mean to turn this into a "yes war no war" debate, but really, why the f*ck are we in Iraq? It seems they've got their defences down just fine, what with the millions of millitia men screaming "Get the **** out of our country!".
Lol...did you miss the keyword there. He said most. So you think MOST U.S. troops are there to shoot up innocent villagers...ok. That explains a lot.
 

Sulkdodds

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Erestheux said:
It's not valid to use this as proof of your anti-American attitude, though.
Well, not alone, no. But if you hate America anyway you probably have a more substantial array of reasoning behind your attitude (unless you're just...a twat). So this would only be a confirmation/contribution.
 
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