Soy beans are picky ****ing crops, they require a lot of energy and irrigation to sustain. That's not arguing against or for any particular point--just freely associating.
Oh good I always like when these threads pop up so I can casually mention how long I've been a vegetarian and pass it off as adding 'context' to my post (10 years btw guys woooo) Anyway – as far as the original topic goes, I guess I would have to side with the 'better than the alternative, they're all dead in the end anyway' argument. However I think the general unease people have about the whole concept is telling; any actual system to implement this would need a lot of moral delineation from the get-go and a fair amount of people constantly prodding the ethical framework for weak points. So, you know. None of that typical American market nonsense of silently adopting no-strings-attached capitalism as the default ideological force & dealing with the consequences once it's too late. As for where the thread has gone – I think that whether or not eating meat at all is ethically sound is a highly personal choice (&no, you don't need meat, nor has there been any consensus that soy will make you grow man-tits, and one of the largest studies ever conducted on the relation b/t diet and chronic disease recommended consuming very little animal protein). For me, it's almost entirely unrelated to my feelings on the extreme poverty of common ethical sense (i.e. 'don't torture things that can feel pain') upon which the industry operates; as a passport-carrying member of the first world all of my actions and consumer choices are kind of soaked in the blood and crushed-up skulls of third world citizens & I'm under no illusions that I'll be getting any special treatment at the pearly gates just because I decided that I didn't need bacon in my life because pigs are smart enough to play Space Invaders. The reason I don't eat meat is that, as far as I'm concerned, a body is the only thing any of us will really ever own and I feel something fundamentally appalling about eating someone else's. What can I say that's just me But even if you don't care about animal rights in the slightest, sustaining the kind of meat industry we currently have going is pretty unambiguously unethical. The ecological effects do obstruct human rights. Stern's right that developing nations don't rely on meat for most of their protein because it's far too expensive for them; turns out our liberty and freedom to buy meat/dairy at cheap prices without bothering to use the most efficient means of production kind of comes at the expense of the liberties and freedoms other people in the world tbh Unfortunately on the other side of the coin we have poor households in the first world that do rely on meat for much of their protein and overall diet, so it's a rather unpleasant situation we've gotten ourselves into; for me, scaling back the meat and dairy industries just means fewer hours per day that I can shove five whole pieces of pizza into my mouth at once, but for people living below the poverty line it can potentially mean replacing essential protein with starches. Meanwhile, making sure that we properly feed the people capitalism ****s over in the first world means that we utilize our resources in such a way that pretty much ensures world hunger oh no what do we do **** In conclusion capitalism is awful I mean really awful like it ****s everything oh and also did I mention that I've been a vegetarian for ten years that's like a full 1/2 of my life
You've been more concise and sarcastic lately, kinda Maureen Dowdesque, yo. Refreshing change of pace, you seem less bitter. Good on you, I could learn a thing or two from your tone there. Warning: BHC disconnected and long-winded diatribe skipping from issue to issue at random. Don't say I didn't warn you. ------------------------------------------------------ line of no return: I'm tired, pissed off, and feel like venting before I quit my shit job tomorrow. As far as meat, food, ethics, that stuff--I'm notoriously uncaring despite my knowledge of the industry. I fluctuate sometimes by the month, day or mood, etc. I wish more people at least knew the ethics and inner workings of massive farming operations. I grew up around them whenever we'd visit my grandparents. After a while, it just seemed normal. No, the operations didn't belong to my family--rather the town itself was sustained by a subsidized cattle/chicken concentration camp (can't remember the proper word here, been up too many days). This is how the families stayed afloat, working there, taking government money and supplying The Man. I'd kill thousands of animals if it meant the well-being of my family, I had no right to cast judgement--but I did express discomfort. Those operations went unquestioned because they allowed the townspeople to pay the bills, provided jobs and just enough for their the rents and the capacity to feed their kids. Hence my focus on rudimentary education and emphasis on policy change. We can't just dismantle these sorts of industries, no matter how cruel their history and slanderous the law behind them are, there's always collateral. In lieu of that the supposedly progressive idea that we can just magically legalize marijuana is equally appalling. A lot of poor folk would lose their well being, the DEA and police agencies having to layoff so much staff would tear families apart and take away much needed high-benefit government provided jobs--not to mention agricultural conglomerates would take control of the industry to provide gas station dispensaries, and provide the cheapest most destructive solution to provide product. Using some cliched scenarios here but I don't think the majority of even the most educated folks realize the amount of work it requires to reverse a system as backwards as our food industry without creating massive collateral damage to our economy and lower class. And at this point, I highly doubt anything would pass in the way of spending money to actually remploying folks with jobs emphasizing rehabilitation and social assistance. One simple internship as a paper-pusher for a congress person or state legislator will shed light on this. On how hard it is to change even the most simple of policies in a nearly cryptic bureaucracy written for folks who speak the language of the privileged. Then you do get something stamped into law, but without any attention to replacing the structures which said politician dismantled. We must understand the politic to change it, teach the language of policy change and how to generally reconstruct and think out sweeping changes to law. These "evil" animal killing corporations put roofs over the head of so many people--roofs that won't be replaced with a simple over-ruling. Despite how easy it is to propose fair policy change as impossible--and that collateral is necessary, because so much of it is not. What if Charlie Wilson rebuilt the education system and paid attention to whom he was arming in Afghanistan? What if we actually gave that 30 acres and a mule after the Emancipation. What if lawmakers had acknowledged the turbulence in South America that led to the utterly ignored white-collar coke boom and cartel murders across Miami and the southern coasts. What if the law had a statute to protect the poor black neighborhoods from crack by, at the very least, giving them the same treatment of the Wall Street kill-sniffers. It took four decades of cycling poor minorities into prisons for addiction instead of rehabilitating them. We hire thugs instead of counselors, we built, and build cruel prisons instead of rehab facilities that turn small time dealers into gang members. Gradual, thoughtful change always gets forgotten in our nation of consumption. There's policy and legislation stamped into law in this country that permits war crimes, murder and this kind of treatment towards human beings. I guess I'm the dude eating McNuggets in one hand and writing papers on the wrongness of renewing the National Defense Authorization act, big corn lobbies/subsidies, etc. A hypocrite in my own right, but everyone picks their convictions. The least cruel way to live, that I can imagine, is in a self-sustaining and powered farming commune wearing clothes crafted from hemp/cotton grown on location, soap and shampoo made from materials and herbs gardened by my nuclear family, etc--replacing Wal-Mart with dirtied bloody knuckles and willpower. But you also have to throw some advocacy in there, right--because you're an insane hardworking mother****er? So every Tuesday you get booth picket sign and find your favorite town square, playground or college campus and promote your agenda loud and proud. With proper educational materials and opportunities for the young and poor. This hypothetical person is actual my awesome cousin, and I really admire the sacrifices he's made to live almost entirely self-sustained, barring medical emergencies or need for police help. He visited my house once and the hair care products and soaps were actually ****ing awesome. Minty hemp bodywash and soap made from animal fats of free grazing livestock with scented herbs. Zeke is also part a mix of White/Black and a large part American Indian. He's a hero of mine. Went to school for botany and got his B.A. and just stood behind every word he argued in class. ****ing sticking to your laurels is hard. I realize this isn't a lifestyle just anyone can adopt, but if even the few that do make an enormous difference after a couple of years. Hell, a great deal of those who've posted in this thread impress me compared to the folk I see at work on a daily basis. We can't just "undo" what we consider cruel legislation without having policy to rebuild communities built upon "cruel" industry. Restructuring must occur to provide for those who lose everything so our over-represented rich can't merely walk away with the illusion of having done justice--when in actuality they've created the same "whackjobs" you slander the next week at the dinner table--fundamentalists who lost their jobs, plunged into poverty and desperately clung to the radicalism that once kept them afloat. I think I know one congressperson who actually took the time to read bills and set his sights on reconstruction in my lifetime, Russ Fiengold--he maintained a level head opposing the patriot act and supposing more reasonable support for our armed forces, he supported campaign finance reform--taking note not to detract from grass roots efforts (now mindlessly reversed by our reactionary Senate). He left when we lost the majority. Nancy Pelosi similarly investigates instead of merely reacting--but she's just that loud obnoxious minority leader to our lawmakers now. So after that huge digression here's the next shit I randomly thought about, bitches: No party should believe themselves guilt free for simply advocating the reversion of law. We should not be content and derive pride in the belief that we've helped folks that we don't glance back towards after the nightly cable news ends.
Jesus could you be any more up your own ass? I swear at least 80% of threads in The Lounge consist of you having an opinion and defending it vigorously. And now, on one of the rare occasions something pops up I actually give a shit about, you take the spectator 'look at me I'm so awesome because none of this bothers me olol' stance and attempt to belittle me? Oh look you even did the same to Stern. No one thinks its funny when you sit on your high horse and rag on other members for doing what they do. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I find it downright annoying, even when it's not aimed at me. So either post something relevant, or again, shut up. You're right of course. All I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be like this, and that's what annoys me. I personally believe it's wrong to eat the flesh of a once-sentient being, if it's not the only available option, however. But that's more for personal reasons than anything else. That's what I was saying about the 'you want it - you kill it' idea, because that at least would cut out the hypocrites who get all icky at the thought of raw meat, much less the appalling savagery that is associated with the industry, but sure do feel warm and fuzzy just thinking about that roast sitting in the oven. I think a quote from Homer Simpson applies here: "Lisa, this is Lamb. Not a lamb." All I can say is that I find it disappointing that so many, in first-world nations, can turn a blind-eye to the suffering and hardship of fellow, living beings. I'll admit, ever living in a non-meat eating society is an extremely unlikely dream, but farming practice needs to, and even potentially could, change. Which actually loops back to the topic at-hand, but obviously my stance on that is clear too: it's unnecessary, and creepily psychopathic. BHC, I can't really think of anything to accept your challenge. But that was a damn good read, I think your cousin just became my hero too. I too have similar insight into the industry, I have grown up and still live on a farm. When Dad was still alive we had our own cattle, of which we sold when their time was up. I'd say it's because of this that I feel extra strongly about animal rights, it's a horrible feeling knowing where your meat may have come from, but it's worse knowing that you also partly responsible for their being there. Anyway, not really that interesting, but thought it might be worth sharing.
Cut it out Jule you're making me hungry! As for the "it doesn't have to be this way argument" I agree only that all the cruely in the food industry is unnecessary. However on the vegetarian utopia thing, sorry but not everyone can tolerate that kind of diet.
I highly suggest someone read my post in it's entirety. It may gratify and benefit you--in a very atypical way. Consider it an investment in yourself.
Remus, that is a fair and reasoned argument, and I don't disagree at all. Your stance is your stance bro. I know it won't stick but my name is 'Julz' (as in 'Jules', I thought it was cool when I was 12 and it's stuck since then) not 'Jule'. I've explained this before and got called a retard, but; the idea is that lowercase Zs look kind of like 3s. And since I spell my name 'Julz' I could also write it 'JUL3' - which in turn is like July 3, which incidentally is my birthday. I thought it was kind of neat, but eh. BHC, I edited my post after I read yours.
So, in a sentence, what did you derive from it besides the fact that I have no idea how to compose a rational, well researched argument?
Well, it made me feel quite helpless for any kind of change in my lifetime (but there's always hope), I'd suggest you know your shit about this stuff, and it's a shame that you, and I, and nearly everyone else succumbs to willing participation of this bullshit capitalist society. That's one sentence. Also, your cousin sounds like a legend. Next time you see him tell him kudos from Australia.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, you're heading in the right direction for sure, but you could strike gold at any moment here. And hey, I'll forward that to Zeke, he's well traveled and would appreciate that. He's fascinated by the internet and wishes it was something he could do regularly. Consider me Jigsaw (from the SAW franchise) for a moment. Solve my passage. Play the game. There's work involved but a reward beyond our fruitful conversation. The superficiality of my post expresses gratitude, and my gratitude is given through superficiality. Would you like to play a game? ed: To those who have solved the riddle, or believe they have, wait for JUL3 to finish his turn, await yours to reap the benefits of any experience I may share with you. Everything is a code.
Well your post sits on both sides of the fence. Like you said, your attitude fluctuates depending on day of the week and particular mood. I'm much the same, mind you I'm sure many, if not all, people are. So I gather your intention with that post was more to give light to both sides of the argument, i.e. where do we draw the line when animal rights start intruding on human rights? For this I don't really have an answer. In fact I'm kinda more confused about the issue than I was when I came in. But maybe that was your intention? I don't know dude.
I've admittedly been reading your name as "Jule" but then I've only been here a year and 2 months(ish) - That's why I typed it as 'Jul3' in my post, just in case. Now duly noted. /mildlyoff-topicpost
Thanks bb. Yeah I guess there comes a point where you realize enacting your bitterness toward the community that hath borne your resentment really only serves to widen the gap & recursively build the resenment Btw I thought I should say that I read your post last night and it was cool I read the things and then I woke up having passed out in front of 1200 words' worth of half-sentences that I wrote in reply but now you've gone and edited your post and it's not so much a 'don't you regret doing that' sort of thing but a 'it's not you it's me' sort of thing (Also aren't you seriously ****ing sleep deprived I sure know I am)
God yeah. But work. And school. Sentence fragments. Peanut butter. About to quit and explore the worrrrld. I'm the king of non-stop post-editing... and my brain lacks all sequence <3
In primary school we were always taught to draw lowercase z's like this: http://i.imgur.com/I4Un1.jpg It's strange I know.
JUL3, my post had, at one point, small size font saying "if you read this entire post and post a thoughtful reply after having read this you'll receive a Steam game of your choosing." I've since spent all my money on plane tickets, but I love you. Thought I owed you an explanation on that one.
Did a search on google, and was surprised to see that all the images show lower case cursive z, that looks more or less like that. My god people are stupid, that's not cursive "z" damn it, not even close...
This is how i was taught too. Although I stopped using it when I was like 10 or 11, at high school they were like wtf are you doing