Historic Return for NI assembly

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Solaris, May 8, 2007.

  1. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Source


    What do you think? As a republican I'm pleased, I'd have liked to see Sinn Fein hold out for an all Ireland police force in the negotiations up to is, but it is truly a historic moment. I hope to now see a united Ireland brought about through political means.
     
  2. gick

    gick Newbie

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    Great news. It would have been nice if the two first ministers werent a psycho and a former IRA commander, but at least they're back in business.

    I think pushing forward the Northern Ireland peace process is one of the few things the Blair government have done particularly well.
     
  3. The Monkey

    The Monkey The Freeman

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    Does the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to belong to the UK or Ireland?
     
  4. ríomhaire

    ríomhaire Moderator
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    The majority of the people of Ireland live in the Republic of Ireland, which is entirly seperate from the UK. There is also Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK (But not Britain). AFAIK a slight majority in the North want to be part of the UK and next to no one in the Republic wants to be.
     
  5. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    The vast majority of people on the Island of Ireland want independence from the UK.

    The Majority of people on the Ireland of Ireland would like to see a full 32county Ireland, Britain currently holds onto 4counties (Northern Ireland)which, becuase of partition is sectarian to the bone.

    I respect those who fought for a 32 county Ireland, it was groups such as the IRA that brought the peace process into gear. Now a united Ireland can be achieved through political means and armed struggle is no longer necessary.
     
  6. ríomhaire

    ríomhaire Moderator
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    Was an armed struggle ever necessary? The Home Rule Bill was going to be passed (Though it was on hold) until the (Truly pathetic) Easter Rising happened. Hell, Ireland would probably be more prosperous if it was part of the UK.
     
  7. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    Pfft the IRA spent 25 years fighting and ultimately lost the war and disarmed - probably the greatest British victory since WW2 in my eyes.

    :|
    With a utopian question a majority will say yes. However, that same majority would baulk at the human detritus that unification would bring to the Republic and I'm certainly not happy paying for it in taxes. And a majority of 60:40ish want to stay within the UK in the 6 counties. There's **** all that any 'republican' can do about that.
     
  8. 15357

    15357 Companion Cube

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    Does it mention any crushing of rebel forces by the autocratic goverment of he United Kingdom?


    er, I rather sympathise with the Irish people, seeing that they are a ethnic people of an autonomous identity (if I'm right, anyway) and because they should be freed from the imperialistic rule of the british.



    Oh wait, this ain't the 1940s Japanese imperialism.


    ARGH. My ignorance of this topic prevents me from making any remarks about the glory of goverment. Or the glory of an independant autonomic nationstate.
     
  9. The Monkey

    The Monkey The Freeman

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    Sorry, I meant to to say Northern Ireland.
     
  10. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Yes, yes it was necessary. The people who rose up on Easter 1916, weren't soley fighting to remove the British army from their lands, the same army who denied them democracy, defended the British landlords who kept them in total poverty, went onto football matches and randomly shot at the crowd and players, the same army who tried to force Irish people to fight for Britain in WW1. No, the people who rose were not purely rising to send the people who occupied and raped their country home, they were also rising to remove the British government, Landlords, currency and way of life from their country. They wanted socialism, at a time when most of the population led lives either often stricken by famine in the countryside that killed millions or being overworked to death in the factories. They wanted a fairer society for all Irishmen and women. You owe your very freedom to these people.

    You say it was a failure, I say it was the most courageous and inspiring event in all of history. You only need to study the Easter Rising for a short while to realize this. Just a couple of thousand men, took Dublin by force, they proclaimed the creation of a 32 county Irish Republic and made themselves the provisional government, they granted freedom and equal rights to all Irish men and women. They did this, in complete knowledge and awareness that within a week Britain would retake Dublin and quash all resistance across the country, they knew they would surely soon be killed or tried and executed. They expected to fail. There aim was to respark amongst the minds of the Irish people the desire to be free and rule themselves and to fight against British imperialism and occupation. In this respect they did not fail.

    Their actions have inspired Irish men and women ever since to fight British imperialism and achieve freedom for all Irish peoples. This inspiration led to the Irish people to rebel and create the Irish free state, and later the Irish republic. The Easter Rising has also inspired the men and women of the IRA to fight British occupation in northern Ireland, when British soldiers fired on unarmed civil rights protesters on Bloody Sunday, the IRA fought back. Now they are on ceasefire and seek through political means to establish a free 32county Ireland, the Easter Rising lives on in the minds of Irish republicans everywhere. I attended a commemoration of the Easter Rising in Easter this year in county Donegal. It reminded me just how important an event this was in Irish history and you would do well to realise that.

    They didn't lose the war, they forced the British government onto the Negotiating table.
     
  11. Angry Lawyer

    Angry Lawyer Newbie

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    Through blowing up kids. What a lovely "victory".

    -Angry Lawyer
     
  12. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    :x
    A PIRA apologist? The PIRA were cowardly terrorist scum - nothing more. You would do well to realise that before backing their sycophantic political voice so glibly
     
  13. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Where did I mention PIRA?
    Although their pub-bombing tactic was horrendous, I do not condone the killing of innocent civilians; the IRA admit that was a mistake, but I do not forgive them for doing it. However, your average IRA man was very brave indeed, in the 1970's catholics were effectively denied the vote, loyalist's with the support of the Army, Police and intelligence services reguarlly killed and tortured catholic men women and children just for being catholic. It was a wholly corrupt and sectarian state, the people of the IRA took what little weapons they had and fought back trying to free themselves from British occupation, terror and rapine.

    The British army has a far more despicable record in NI than the IRA.
     
  14. kirovman

    kirovman Tank

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    No home rule for Ireland!

    Down with Republicans! (especially George Bush)

    Up with Unionists! (especially Queen Victoria)

    That's my public demonstration for today, and I'm proud of it.

    Tomorrow, I will be demonstrating in favour of quasi-tribal alliances in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
     
  15. gick

    gick Newbie

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    The majority of people in Northern Ireland want to remain part of Britain.

    I agree with you regarding the 1918-23 Army, as that was recognised by the Dail as a legitimate army of the Republic, but for ****'s sake how can you possibly condone the things that happened during the troubles? Because that is exactly what you are doing - the IRA as an organisation murdered and killed innocent people, women and children included. By being a part of that organisation every member was complicit in those murders, so dont give me the kind of bullshit you spout about the terrorists in Iraq ('oh its ok as long as they only kill soldiers!').

    You make me ****ing sick, and as the son of people who had to go through years of abuse and intimidation because of arsehole apologists like you giving their community a bad name, I say **** YOU. Its obvious from the way you started trotting out all the old chestnuts about 'imperialism' and 'freedom fighters' that you really don't think for yourself - you're just regurgitating the same old quasi-marxist drivel you obviously got brainwashed into by your parents. I really hope i'm wrong and this is just youthful idealism (with a pretty sick twist), but I doubt it.

    People like you are the reason I am now ashamed to call myself a socialist, and people like you are are driving me further and further to the right. They may be dickheads on that side of the political spectrum, but at least their bullshit has some kind of internal logic.

    /rant
     
  16. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    I endorse this product/event
     
  17. Bob_Marley

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    Its good that the two sides can start working out thier differences.

    Its bad that the show is being run by paramilitaries and terrorists.

    My personal opinion is that Britian should never have closed the maze* and should have kept those terrorists locked up for good.

    The modern IRA are nothing but terrorist scum. The loyalist paramilitaries are no better.

    Maybe if they'd dropped the armalite in favor of the balot box I'd be more sympathetic. But they didnt. They continued to commit terroist acts despite claiming political legitimacy.

    Clearly, as they're all too screwed up to run thier own country, it should be left to a more capable government. The British Government.

    * Also subject to the worst timing of releasing known terrorists in history, with Mr. Blair telling us we must "Fight the war on Terror" while he let those who'd been terrorising the United Kingdom for more than 30 years run free.
     
  18. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    One big ad hominem, greating posting there. You don't have a clue what happened in the troubles, do you? What have you read on the subject?
    And with regards too:
    Does the same apply to British soldiers after what they did on Bloody Sunday?
     
  19. Angry Lawyer

    Angry Lawyer Newbie

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    I bet your father never had to pick through the wreckage of a carbomb, and never had to see his best friend be sent home in a box.

    -Angry Lawyer
     
  20. 15357

    15357 Companion Cube

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    Wikipedia:

    Ok, that rather makes the british forces at the time sound evil, but I still have my doubts, since it's wikipedia.


    lol.

    They actually remind me of the Korean Independence Volunteers in the 1910 ~ 1945. Our Independence fighters bombed Japanese military, police, and political buildings and attempted assasinations on many Japanese military officials, including the King guy of japan.

    So, I have to sympathise with them. However, because of the above mentions of the "Modern IRA", I am still confused. Wikipedia didn't really make it clear on the article on Irish Republican Army.

    Also,

    That's horrible. D: I'm not sure about anything here now.


    Some sources make them sound like independence fighters, and some make them sound like indiscriminate murderers.
     
  21. DEATHMASTER

    DEATHMASTER The Freeman

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    You know what I was thinkin.
    [​IMG]
     
  22. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    The modern provisional IRA (1970-1995) were terrorists (who targeted civilians indiscriminately) while the first IRA (1919-1922) were insurgents (who fought a semi-guerrilla, semi conventional war post WW1). There is no direct lineage between the two aside from a shared name
     
  23. 15357

    15357 Companion Cube

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    Ah, ty.
     
  24. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    My father's best friend was killed in the middle of the night, armed loyalists broke into his house shot my dads friend who was 16, tried to shoot his mother the gun jammed so they beat her to death with the pistol grip instead. His other friend at a similar age was killed by a loyalist nail bomb left on his doorstep. My dad lived in a sectairian society where catholics were effectively denied the vote, beaten and tortured by police and the army merely for coming from a catholic background, discriminated by the state, the very state that was supported by the police and armed forces. The IRA tried to destroy this state and create a free 32 county Ireland.

    1537, the source you quoted is accurate have a look at this for more modern information.

    No they didn't, although the Army council did briefly sanction the targeting of civilians (an unforgivable decision imo) the vast majority of their operations were targeting soldiers and policemen.
     
  25. DeusExMachina

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    Good quotes from the Punisher comic Kitchen Irish I always thought rang true about all the IRA business.

    "Y'see, that's what you boys never seem to understand. You're all so eaten up with your fiery Republican zeal or whatever, you never stop to consider that the opposition might not give a ****...you never hit my house. You never made it about ordinary people, not in anyway that it counted...is never giving in, never compromising, is that really so great? When so many parts of your country have been turned into hell? When three thousand people have died for sweet **** all?...The people of Ireland are getting on with their lives."
     
  26. ríomhaire

    ríomhaire Moderator
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    I don't want to get into a huge depate here so I'm only going to reply to certain points.

    That was hardly random. It was a a retribution for the assasination of various British targets. Never the less, I agree, it was an utterly horrible act.

    Ironicly, it wasn't the rising itself that inspired the people. It was the Birtish's miss-handeling of the situation. Most of the country was against the rebels and many, such as the Independant, (An Irish newspaper for those who don't know) called for them to be exicuted. It wasn't until they actually started exicuting them that the people became outraged. Rather strange to be honest, but I guess people are just a bit mad.
     
  27. Bob_Marley

    Bob_Marley Tank

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    I've worked it out. I know why Solaris dosent believe in British rule in NI.

    Its because he believes that the whole of the British Isles do, infact, belong to France.

    Taking the logic of his argument for Argentine rule in the Falklands the actual whishes of the population of any island are irrelivent, and that island should be controlled by the nearest country on the closest continental land mass.

    Therefore, we must conclude that all of the UK and the Republic of Ireland are not, infact, legitimate indipendent nations, but are in reality parts of France!

    Though this still dosent explain his support for terrorist organisations.

    Have to give that one a bit of a think.
     
  28. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Yes, but the point is they shot at random people, from one side of the stadium to the other, they didn't care who they killed all Irishmen and women were scumbags and they wanted revenge.

    And you're right, the execution of the leaders of 1916 did matry them.
     
  29. RakuraiTenjin

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    IRA was righteous. A lot of the targets were foolish and had some bad apples in it, but the principle is good and most fighters weren't murderers
     
  30. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    and you base this on what exactly?
     
  31. Bob_Marley

    Bob_Marley Tank

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    Ah, the good old rose tinted spectacles of US citizens reguarding the IRA. You shipping some AR-18s over there this week, too?
     
  32. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Fact, the vast majoirty of IRA volunteers never killed innocent civilians, the targeted the upholders of an illegitimate state. They were trying to free their Irish brothers and sisters from British oppression, something you don't seem t recognize. This was the main occupation of the IRA, PIRA, INLA, a few tactical errors were made that resulted in civllian deaths yes. Yet you taint all the volunteers with this brush yet refuse to do it to the Occupying soldiers who severed there, who served in the same army that in the 1970's fired on unarmed civil rights marchers killing 14 men. Or the same soldiers who routinely tortured and beaten prisoners during internment just for being catholic.

    It's a sad day when you an Irish man, who owes his very freedom to men such as these, denounces them as terrorist scumbags. The heroes of 1916 were terrorists yet they're still heroes. Terrorism is a way of fighting, it is not inherently bad or good.
     
  33. The Monkey

    The Monkey The Freeman

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    Then what are we arguing about?
     
  34. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Because this majority who are mainly protestant have over the last 70years oppressed the catholic, republican, minority. They have denied catholics the vote, housing, civil rights. The state has regularly conspired with loyalist terror mobs to murder catholics, the police a protestant organisation has helped them with this and has helped make lives for catholics a living hell. They do not have the right to do this, irrelevant if they are the majority. The NI is built on sectarianism, this is the only way it could survive as a British state. Britian have absolutely no right in Ireland or to do this to the Irish people.

    The Irish Republican Army and similar republican organisations want the creation of a 32 county Ireland, this would encompass all of the Island of Ireland. An Ireland free from British interference and occupation.
     
  35. Gray Fox

    Gray Fox Newbie

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    Was this an official policy, like written in the law, or unofficial practice tolerated by the British government.
     
  36. Bob_Marley

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    Hang on. So you're saying that the British and the Protestants dont have any rights becuase of what they did in NI, where as the Catholics do, despite spending the last 30 years blowing people up.

    That argument (like most other things you come out with) makes sod all sense.

    Also,

    Could you please explain how there are two majorities?
     
  37. Solaris

    Solaris Party Escort Bot

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    Well for a long time only those who owned a house could vote, as catholics were generally poorer than protestants they were severely underrepresented, also, constituencies were designed to split up catholic areas, so say you had a large catholic area, that would be split up into quarters and each quarter would share a constituency with a bodering protestant constituency 3x it size meaning catholics were further denied representation.

    Spelling mistake, sorry.

    No, they have as much rights as anyone else. Just the NI Ireland state does not have the right to exist, becuase it is an illegitimate state founded on sectarianism. And catholics have not spent the last 30years blowing people up, republicans have. There are and have been protestant republicans and many atheist ones, the Irish resistance movement is not a sectarian one, the loyalist movement is, my dad was beaten up when he was 20 by loyalists just for being catholic.
     
  38. Bob_Marley

    Bob_Marley Tank

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    Now, I said:

    That means that you believe that the British do indeed have a right in NI. And possibly the whole of Ireland.

    Exelent. Victory is mine! :p



    One could argue that, conversly, NI was established in order to protect those who wished to remain part of the UK, as well as removing the posiblity of Northern Unionists launching a similar campagin to that of the IRA against the Irish Repbulic.

    Now, in my opinion, if the majority of the populance of the 6 counties wish to remain citizens of the UK they should be allowed to do so. Just like how I believe that if the majority of people living on the Falklands want to stay in the UK, they should.

    Now, we can either accept majority rule, or we can univerally apply the logic you came up with for the Falklands Islands, which dictates that neither the Nationalists or Unionists have any rights at all to the ownership of Ireland (or the rest of the British Isles for that matter) and the whole of the British Isles belongs to France.

    During the troubles both sides commited horrific acts and, by accident or design killed innocent civilians. This violence must be left behind and all must move foreward with the new democratic process. And if that results in NI remaining as part of the UK, all sides must accept that, just as if it results in NI becoming part of the Republic.
     
  39. $kelet0r

    $kelet0r Tank

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    How dare you. If I owe the members of the IRA anything, it's a few 9mm bullets in their kneecaps, for the animals that they are. I would never give loyalty to an organisation that is as criminal and evil as the PIRA, that undermined and subverted the Irish government and whose regular business included torturing and maiming Northern catholic teenagers.
     
  40. Bob_Marley

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    Random note: the modern IRA killed 4 times more of its own members than those of Loyalist Paramilitaries (who killed around 2 times more of thier own that nationalists).

    Odd conflict, Northern Ireland.
     

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