• EXCLUSIVE: Next-Gen Source 2 Engine Is In Development

    Discussion in 'News' started by -smash-, Aug 6, 2012.

    Updates 1 & 2: [check bottom of post]

    Our resident investigator Barnz has done some more digging in the Source Filmmaker script files, and he's uncovered probably some of the biggest news we've ever reported on our site.

    [IMG]

    He's found many more references to a "Source 2", but not just one vague line like our previous entry. We're only one file deep, and already it's clear that the references to "Source 2" are indeed referring to a next-gen engine that Valve is currently developing. I'm only going to show one line in this post, but there are about 60+ references here, and this one line is probably the most telling.

    Here's the code paste at Pastebin.com, and this is the file path on the harddrive:

    ".../SourceFilmmaker/game/sdktools/python/global/lib/site-packages/vproj/vproj.py"

    [IMG]
    Line 1387:
    '''Return an str with the current engine version.
    If key doesn't doesn't exist, assume 'Source', otherwise invalid -- assume next-gen 'Source 2'.'''
    [IMG]

    There are references to Source, Hybrid, and Source 2 in this file. We speculate that Hybrid is the base for which Source 2 is sitting on. Barnz also says it looks like Source 2 is using the same pipeline as Source, meaning that it will probably be keeping its .BSP level format. We haven't found any references to DirectX or OpenGL yet, or Episode Three for that matter, but we're still investigating.

    The Ep3 reference from before was just a comment, so it's unlikely we'll find any more mentioning of it. Source Filmmaker was in development parallel to Source 2, hence why these script files have so many references to the new engine.

    Valve wants you to know that they "don't like to brag, but Source is considered the most flexible, comprehensive, and powerful game development environment out there. And it's about to get even better."

    We'll keep you posted if we find anything else! Or if you come across some new stuff, we'd like to help you share it with the world, so you can submit any findings to news@valvetime.net.

    [IMG]

    Update #1

    Another member from Facepunch, GameDev, has pointed out that there are some new "Source 2 tools" icons stashed away in the SFM files. Here's a preview of a few of them:

    [IMG]

    And the file names in their respective order...
    • appicon
    • terrain_tool_toggle_control_cage
    • terrain_tool_select_verts
    • terrain_tool_edge_smooth
    • paint_tool_icon
    • scale_tool_icon
    You can find these at:

    ".../SourceFilmmaker/game/platform/tools/images/hammer"

    [IMG]

    Update #2

    J*Rod from Facepunch has noted a few new things in his recap. First, now there's some evidence that suggests Source 2 will take more advantage of 64-bit systems. You can find the reference at:

    ".../SourceFilmmaker/game/sdktools/python/global/lib/site-packages/vproj/vprojUI.py"

    [IMG]
    Line 1540:
    # Disable 64-bit for 32-bit projects
    if ( self.engine in ENGINE.SOURCE_FAMILY ) or ( self.engine == ENGINE.HYBRID ):
    self***n32bitCheckBox.setChecked( True )
    self***n32bitCheckBox.setDisabled( True )
    else:
    self***n32bitCheckBox.setDisabled( False )
    [IMG]

    From what I can understand, this if/else statement is disabling 64-bit for 32-bit projects that are from either the Source, SFM (the 2nd engine from SOURCE_FAMILY), or Hybrid engines. But, it's not disabling 64-bit for Source 2, so the take away here is that it's suggesting Source 2 supports 64-bit. But it's not for sure as I don't understand the entirety of the code.

    You'll remember that Valve had implemented support for 64-bit in Source way back in 2005 with the release of The Lost Coast, but Valve hasn't added the support to any of their other games due to some cases of poor performance and glitches.

    Second, currently Valve's game models are of the MDL format. Well, it appears that Valve will be moving to a new format, VMDL. And the "V" prefix is popping up all over the place. VGAME, VPROJ, VMOD, VMDL, etc, which could support the fact that they're going to use a new filesystem and pipeline. From:

    ".../SourceFilmmaker/game/sdktools/python/global/lib/site-packages/filesystem/valve.py"

    [IMG]
    Line 138:
    '''A "Valve Path" is one that is relative to a mod - in either the game or content tree.

    Ie: if you have a project with the content dir: d:/content and the game dir: d:/game
    a "Valve Path" looks like this: models/awesomeProps/coolThing.vmdl

    To resolve this path one must look under each mod the current project inherits from.
    So a project "test" which inherits from "another" would result in the following searches:
    d:/content/test/models/awesomeProps/coolThing.vmdl
    d:/content/another/models/awesomeProps/coolThing.vmdl...'''
    [IMG]

    And just as well, the key values that current Source games have are stored in a file called gameinfo.txt. It looks like Source 2 games will be storing these values in a gameinfo.gi.

Comments

Discussion in 'News' started by -smash-, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. kanaka
    GAAABEEEEENN!!!
  2. SpotEnemyBoats
    So ****ing cool, THANK YOU BASED GABEN

    Valve listened to us, and we are getting what we asked for.
  3. adz
    fantastic news.
  4. scotland1
    This is really exciting. Pretty much confirms EP3 is well in development.
  5. Ren.182
    Can't wait to hear more about this.
  6. SpotEnemyBoats
    Now I know for sure HL3/EP3 will be worth the weight, every single bit.
  7. Kennyist
    I'm sorry, But how is this an exclusive? This has been posted to other sites like LambdaGeneration hours before it was posted here (over 10 hours). Also It was found by a face-punch member early yesterday morning (GMT) A whole day before it was posted here.

    (Never mind)

    Also "Next-Gen Source 2 Engine Is In Development", You can't say that.. This is just speculation based on some files it could be what valve always do any just be an upgrade like OB version.
  8. DEATH eVADER
    Any mention of a SOB in there?
  9. Barnz
    Try reading the news. It's not the same files.
  10. Kennyist
    Ah all right, I was wrong about that. Both articles read basically the same so I thought they where the same file.
  11. unozero
    *sheds a tear*

    finally.
  12. idopik
    I don't think this is "proof" that Source engine 2 is in development, The fact that valve code uses these flags/keys to determine which engine to use doesn't mean both engines even exist. This line increases their code's overall engine portability, maybe in a future sense, kind of like "Let's make it so that when we have a new engine, we won't have to rewrite our code in order to use it".

    In my opinion, all this shows is that a "source engine 2" is being planned for, but not necessarily that it is currently in development. And that makes sense, obviously Valve will keep making games, sooner or later they will need a new game engine, so it's not all that shocking.

    And about Episode 3, I can't see why everyone thinks the existence or non-existence of a source engine 2 has anything to do with whether or not a new half life game is in the works...
  13. Omnomnick
    This definitely explains why they aren't bothering to update Hammer, why bother when a significantly improved version will most likely come out with this?
  14. Pi Mu Rho
    I wouldn't go holding your breath for that.
  15. Rossjg
    I think the news post is jumping the gun a little.
  16. Dr. House
    Is it me or all the "Source 2" references are in tools related code? Can't it be just the new set of tools they announced many time ago?
  17. pilatomic
    According to some comment found in Alien Swarm SDK files some time ago, source engine 2 was already in devlopment :

  18. BabyHeadCrab
    Jumping the gun or not, this is ****ing stellar news. I'd love a reinvigorated modding and licensing scene.
  19. Doofcake
    ERMAHGERD yes yes yes yes!
    New engine. New Hammer. All my money.
  20. Rossjg
    When you run sensationalist headlines like "EXCLUSIVE: NEXT-GEN SOURCE ENGINE 2!!!", you open the gates for idiots to say idiotic things. Like this:

  21. Shakermaker
    Great scoop guys, kudos!
  22. morgs
    Yup that is definitive proof. I'd better like the page lol

    Also I don't see what all the hubbub is about. It's about time the source engine got a major update.
  23. Dr. House
  24. qwertyy
    protip: tier0 is where all the engine's memory management classes are defined, and the comment in the ASW sdk implies that they've changed that code heavily for something, which is most likely porting to linux

    source 2 isn't a "next-gen update", my theory is that it is a seperate engine branch that has been worked on since 2008 (right around the time those steam for linux builds were found), to bring linux support to valve's games. i'm 100% sure they chose osx first for porting steam/source to to gauge customer and other dev's interest in porting. guess what happened? more devs have crossplatform games than ever. this is what's going to happen, though i don't think valve will ever perfect their toolset and release the new tools to modders in any sort of timely fasion (just look at vmpi, it was present and 100% working in code leak but we didn't end up getting it until well after EP2 was released because of licensing issues).
  25. SpotEnemyBoats
    Source engine is old, and so is the tools. Source 2 would reinvigorate the modding scene for Valve, instead of modders leaving for Unreal Engine 4 or CryEngine 3. Expectations are high for HL3, using a slightly updated CSGO engine would be a mistake.
  26. Lucas
    Lets hope so it actually is! :D
  27. Rossjg
    But none of that is why you are an idiot. Who do you think you are refuting in that post? It's not me.
  28. SpotEnemyBoats
    I think you misunderstood me, I simply meant that Valve listened to one of the community's biggest complains with Source/Hammer editor. As well as the engine branch becoming old.

    Is that really unreasonable?
  29. Schru
    What I think Ross was criticizing is the overly sensationalist manner of this news post, not to mention misconceived branding of it as an exclusive.

    On one hand, it is going far to take these findings as confirmation of a wholly new version of Source or the release of a new Half-Life being imminent. On the other hand, we know that Source is constantly being improved; Gabe said in several interviews that they are aware of the shortcomings of Source and its modding tools, and that they are working on interesting technologies.

    And to address your earlier point SpotEnemyBoats, it does not require constant complaints on forums for Valve to realize those issues exist and to set to work on them.
  30. Gish
    ♥ Super
    I hope this will be the best of the engines
  31. -smash-
    Overly sensationalist? Maybe the title suggests too much, but the rest of the post is evidence. And there's a lot of it if you're paying attention.
  32. Eejit
    I'm looking forward to Source 3.
  33. SpotEnemyBoats
    Actually, the quote from Gabe that he understands that the tools are painful for themselves and other developers (modders, indie, etc.), and they are being worked on. But I don't recall him, Doug or anyone else saying that they are working on giving a major upgrade to the engine for the next gen.

    Its true they've been improving the engine, little by little (differed rendering in ASW and Portal 2 gel physics). But at the same time, they're falling behind the competition in terms of technology. There was a time the Source engine was leading the pack and debuting with the best game ever made.

    I think Valve knows this, especially with next gen consoles on the horizon.
  34. Schru
    Indeed, they have not explicitly stated that they are working on a thorough change of Source, however, I think it is reasonable to assume that they have been working on technologies that may have great impact on the engine.

    Was it not still in 2008 that they would talk about the potential of multi-core processors? I think I remember their saying that they encountered serious implementation issues back then. But I suspect that now, with this hardware being more efficient and common, we might yet see Valve do interesting things with it--more profound than the current application in multi-core rendering.
    Then there are also their experiments with hardware, controllers, and biometrics.

    I think that is a lot of promising projects that may not necessarily constitute a completely changed engine, but on their own may be more meaningful than graphical improvements.

    As for their current achievements, I think Source still has several very important advantages over other state of the art engines: facial animations, highly-perfected AI companions, good physics with game-play relevance, hybrid of lighting technologies that produce excellent visual results, measurement of players' state and adjusting game mechanics accordingly.
    All those served far better to refine game-play and provide them with narrative techniques leaps and bounds ahead of other games, than the pursuit of higher general rendering capabilities, like in the case of CryEngine.

    That information is indeed valid and interesting, but because of its source I do not think it can be treated as definitive or as a confirmation of what is to come in the forseeable future. The air of excietment here and at SUF is just excessive.
  35. The RaDaMaNt
    Nah, better wait for Source 8