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Eurogamer: "Devs Owe You Nothing"

Discussion in 'News' started by Chris D, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Chris D

    Chris D Administrator. Staff Member

    Eurogamer has posted an editorial which explores the self-entitlement demonstrated by fans in various gaming communities including, yep you guessed it, the Call for Communication group's recent effort to get Half-Life 2 in the top 10 played games list on Steam.
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    Regardless of your personal opinion, the article is very well written. You can read the full article here.
  2. Eejit

    Eejit The Freeman

    I've heard the same arguments for and against ad nauseum about GRRM and his books.
  3. Lobster

    Lobster Moderator

    I wonder if this thread will descend into an ocean of stupid, like everywhere else I have seen post it.

    I guess it keeps the Half-Life name active in the news though! Which speaks volumes for Valves policy by itself.
  4. Chris D

    Chris D Administrator. Staff Member

    This thread will not descend into anything. We're a forum full of incredibly mature, sensible people.

    /me hovers over the "Close Thread" button.
  5. Rossjg

    Rossjg Companion Cube

    I'm in a rush so I could only read the first few paragraphs. My view: it's accurate, and the 'Call for Communication' group likewise falls into the category of 'naivety and self-absorption' inherent in the Facebook/X-Factor generation. It may claim otherwise and feign to be nothing more than a 'friendly get-together of HL fans', but if you believe that, you're simply wilfully ignorant of the heart of the matter.
  6. <RJMC>

    <RJMC> The Freeman

    **** that shit I want mah episode 3 ! :L
  7. Joest

    Joest Newbie

    I disagree. I contend that Valve does owe us. We bought their games. We bought Half Life, Counter Strike, Left 4 Dead, Portal and all of their other great games. We buy games on Steam. We make mods for their games, which, in turn, promotes their games. We fund their all of their projects with our money. We stand up for them and vote Valve 'the best developer' and Gordon Freeman 'the best character'. We spend our time, effort, and money for them.

    The only reason that Valve exists is because of us. Valve is an industry giant because of their fanbase. Without us, they wouldn't be anything. The least they could do is talk to us.
  8. Vegeta897

    Vegeta897 The Freeman

    Now this, I think, is too much.

    Buying a game from a developer does not make the developer owe you a sequel. Neither does buying all their other games. Buying a game entitles you to the game you bought, and continued support for that game, which Valve has given (a hell of a lot more than other developers, too)

    You certainly don't speak for everyone when you say "we make mods for their games". That's a small percentage of the community. And Valve has, again, gone beyond what is standard in the world of pc gaming and provided mod support and tools for their games. They don't owe you a sequel for this.

    Saying that you "fund their projects" with your money is laughable. You buy their products. You are not an investor.

    Voting Valve best dev and Gordon best character is not spending time, effort, and money. Those are things the article was talking about when it said it's not hard to be a fan.

    This is the kind of self-entitlement the article is talking about, and it's where I agree with the writer. Even still, I can't say the group is a waste of time or completely stupid. There's nothing wrong with bringing fans together to try and be noticed.
  9. If you buy a Ford, do they owe it to you to release the next model?

    What exactly would it take for Valve to repay their huge debt to you?
  10. <RJMC>

    <RJMC> The Freeman

    I am the only one who thinks valve owe us that cuz they SAYD there will be a episode3 and they havent sayd anything about deciding to not make episode3 and whatever,they just sayd they will ditch the episodic model but that they will take more time whit episode 3,thats what they sayd untill they just stoped talking about it so yes I think valve still "owe" us something till they say they decided to cancel ep3 and the whole halflife series
  11. ríomhaire

    ríomhaire Moderator Staff Member

    They owe us one thing for that transaction: the games we bought. You did not buy a promise. You did not buy a subscription. You bought a ****ing game. That is the beginning and end of the transaction.
  12. brad92

    brad92 Spy

    Don't be ****ing ridiculous, Ross. I can't speak for the 50,000+ people in the group, and I won't deny a good number of those people will have joined out of, as you call it, 'naivety and self-absorption', but that certainly does not take away from the intentions of it's creator, Surfrock. That said, you can't just negate the significance of what consumers might be saying about a certian product purely on the pretense of self-entitlement, despite the fact that some of those people mightn't have a clue of the implications and ramifications of what they're saying. I'm in no rush for another Half-Life game, but I see value in what the group is trying to stand for. I think it's unfair of you and others to dismiss that while occupying some 'high moral ground'.

    As for Surfrock:

  13. MFL

    MFL AlbatrossofTime

    I personally hope they never release any information as a result of an appeal from the masses. Bad precedent to set, succumbing to the drooling masses. Lose integrity on that front, and what's next? Swingin' from trees with crowbars and hiding from resonance cascades in refrigerators, that's what.

    Or maybe they are trying to find a way to make it profitable. Like hats. Or yearly releases of the same product. Or a fiercely competitive niche cyber-games community.

    Hell, they should just call it quits and make Left for Half-Dead: Life Team of the Ancient Fortress Ricochet. 3. Romp Edition. The G-man takes individuals of "limitless potential" and drops them in a combination of 2fort, dust, city 17, and the freakin fantasy three lane. Play any style of game you choose, fps, moba, rts, whatever. Blend all the ****in continuities together. **** it.
  14. coheedswicked

    coheedswicked Newbie

  15. surfrock22

    surfrock22 Medic

    I feel like what we're doing is something positive and best for everyone; that's why I started the group. It was never about myself, and it was never about achieving anything more than what's stated in the original message. The whole situation, in my opinion, had become extremely negative and I wanted to do something about that. People may not agree with what we are doing, but I'd like to ask:

    What's so bad about our group? Have we created anything negative, respectfully requesting something that we feel would benefit both Valve and their fans?

    In the absolute worse case scenario, Valve simply does nothing, and at the end of the day, thousands of HL fans were able to get together and play a game they love, and meet some new friends along the way.

    I don't see anything naive or self-absorbed about that.

  16. ríomhaire

    ríomhaire Moderator Staff Member

    Valve are getting so much attention from not doing anything why should they bother starting? :p
  17. brad92

    brad92 Spy

    I lol'ed, riom.
  18. Edeslash

    Edeslash Party Escort Bot

    I really don't see a reason why there's so much negative feedback about the event. There's nothing wrong with it. I enjoyed it a lot and liked it. I don't even believe Valve is going to respond but I still think it was a great success.

    So give me one reason not to like what happened a week ago..?
  19. brad92

    brad92 Spy

    There is no reason, Edeslash.
  20. Rossjg

    Rossjg Companion Cube

    You say it's not self-absorbed, and yet you can't help but reference yourself at every available opportunity. Indeed in criticising the group, mimaz has responded by vouching for your personality. Surfrock, you're a "great bloke". And you've never had any self-interest. The strength of your character witness aside, why does the group not speak for itself? You have many, many members, most of whom joined by sympathising with the group's original statement ("tell us about ep3!"). It's quite evident what the group stands for now, so why the self-aggrandising attitude in your posts? It seems to me there's an incongruity between you and what a group should stand for.

    I don't think this is a big issue at all, and really I don't mind what you lay claim to. I'm just saying: you're a little hypocritical here.

    WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN.
  21. Schru

    Schru Vortigaunt

    I think the issue with this initiative is that it has at its core a conviction that Valve can't make those simple observations on their own, that they're out of touch with the community, and that they need urgently to have these views brought to their attention. And not just by any standard measures, but through an attention stunt whose organizers consider lack of Valve's response the 'worst case scenario'.

    Valve know, they have shown time after time that they take great interest in the response to their actions. They have a good reason for the silence, it's a decision they've made, not their underestimating the status and following of the Half-Life series. Gabe's statements about how important communication is should be considered with that in mind, as well as their open stance on their other projects, which is to say that in spite of frequent communication's benefits, this was the best course of action from their better-informed perspective.

    It is clear from following the general attitudes of the fan base and the aims of the group that its purpose was to do something that would get Valve to release information about the future of Half-Life. A contention about their approach to the future of Half-Life, not a spontaneous get-together to play the games, we can all do that on our own.
  22. brad92

    brad92 Spy

    I'm saying I think it's important both parties meet half-way. I certainly don't think fans should dictate the way companies develop or market their games, but they're an important part of the whole process and oughn't be completely disregarded. There was, for a long while, an expectation that Valve would develop an 'Episode Three'. They're free to change those plans in whatever way they deem necessary and beneficial but in doing so, I think, they have to be as candid as possible with a number of people who might not be aware of, let alone understand, the nature of said changes. Commenting on that doesn't necessitate giving people a direct look into the production process or spewing out target dates. By refusing to do so, they're just propogating and perpetuating needless confusion and aggression (and there's inarguably a great deal of that). That's where they're accountable to some extent. People in general (including myself) don't understand the complexities of the various processes involved in producing a game and then providing it for people en masse. They can’t always be expected to, of course, but I think that’s where steps should be taken.

    That's the point I'm trying to make. Equal footing between developers and consumers. By advocating a more proactive attitude, you can weed out some of the senseless nonsense and promote more realistic expectations. For Valve, that surely means that people will shut up and play the next Half-Life without any pre-conceptions, they won't have nearly as many people crying about how they’ve been ‘ripped off’ and ‘cheated’, the reception it receives will probably be better off, and they enjoy a better reputation and a clearner relationship with their fans.

    AKA, win/win.
  23. Rossjg

    Rossjg Companion Cube

    Your assumption is that Valve aren't already aware of all that, and that's your mistake.
  24. surfrock22

    surfrock22 Medic

    I'm just explaining my reasoning. I don't see why I can't share my own feelings on the matter; how does that make me self-absorbed? Why do you keep making this about me when I'm trying to explain my personal reasoning along with the goals of the group?

    The group does speak for itself, but we're on a message board to share our feelings/opinions.
  25. Rossjg

    Rossjg Companion Cube

    Young man! did you even read my post? It's like you missed my point by a galactic margin.
  26. brad92

    brad92 Spy

    I don't mean to say they aren't aware of it. I'm questioning their response to it. Like I said, I'm in no rush for the next Half-Life and I'm nowhere near as passionate about the whole initiative as, say, Surf might be, but right now I don't see much benefit in Valve's silence. That might change in retrospect.
  27. surfrock22

    surfrock22 Medic

    I read your post, and I'm awaiting your answer. I don't see how I am being hypocritical.
  28. Schru

    Schru Vortigaunt

    As I have said, Valve clearly know the importance of direct and straight-forward communication, yet they've apparently deemed it best not to exercise it in regards of the new Half-Life. It might be that so far it was too early to talk about it, that the project wasn't yet fleshed out. They have already said that the game is coming and that for the time being they have nothing more to say about it.

    The dissatisfaction expressed on forums is understandable, not of much consequence, and in large part negligible, especially in case of people who feel 'ripped off', 'cheated' etc. It doesn't mean that Valve don't care, but rather that it was a trade-off they included in their calculations when they decided for this course of action.
  29. SpotEnemyBoats

    SpotEnemyBoats Companion Cube

    It's true that developers don't owe consumers anything, but Valve made a commitment and the game deserves an ending. It's not like its a cartoon where it lacks funding or ratings, say... Samurai Jack for instance. The point is, you start a story, you finish it.
  30. Schru

    Schru Vortigaunt

    And do you think they decided to abandon Half-Life or forgot about it?
  31. SpotEnemyBoats

    SpotEnemyBoats Companion Cube

    I think they just decided to take a break Half-Life, while the episodes were nice... I think it got too comfortable with the same formula. Half-Life 2 blew people away, but the episodes did not. I'm pretty sure Doug Lombardi said that in an interview somewhere.
  32. Schru

    Schru Vortigaunt

    Indeed. And isn't it a good thing that they took some focus off the series? They are sure to come back with fresh and innovative ideas, richer in all the experience gained working on other projects.
  33. MFL

    MFL AlbatrossofTime

    I certainly hope so. That mess was getting stale.

    edited - for needed sarcasm marks, apparently
  34. surfrock22

    surfrock22 Medic

    That's probably the case.
  35. knut

    knut Party Escort Bot

    yes, they've abandoned half-life. how feasible.
  36. MFL

    MFL AlbatrossofTime

    I can't wait to put a beanie on Gordon. with a puffball
  37. Rossjg

    Rossjg Companion Cube

    And of course as soon as it's announced and we start to get a taste for the game, the community will have completely forgotten about the long period of time that elapsed between then and Episode 2!
  38. MFL

    MFL AlbatrossofTime

    It'll be almost as if they finally started talking about a product they could have been talking about all along!
  39. Kadayi

    Kadayi Newbie

    Posted there, and posted here (and a few other places besides): -

    With regard to the whole HL2: EP3 thing I think it's important to understand that when Valve announced the episodes back in May of 2006: -

    http://uk.gamespot.com/news/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced-6151796

    They did so with clear intent for the story arc to cover 3 episodes continuing the HL2 story line and for the trilogy to be all wrapped up by Christmas of 2007.

    I think it's fair to say that the people who bought into episode 1 did so because not only were they fans of the HL storyline, but also because they were buying into the idea of this different approach to game releases.

    Needless to say Valve did what Valve does best and failed to live upto their promises with regard to swift turnaround. With episode 2 turning up in October 2007 in The Orange box. However generally people were accepting of some degree of delay at the time as despite previous delays Valve had a good track record in delivering polished (if late) game experiences.

    Still we're now a good 4 years on from the release of episode 2 and Act 3 of that trilogy is still largely MIA, and Valve have fallen all but silent on the subject.

    I think it's understandable that having left the story unfinished for so long that people who have invested their time and money into HL over the years are rightly curious to know what the state of play is (whether we'll ever see EP3 or whether we are heading straight into HL3 for instance?) and personally I don't see what the big issue is with the CFC group simply asking Valve for some clarification on where things stand, especially when Valve pull stunts like this: -

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/12/02/valve-employee-wears-half-life-3-shirt-trolls-internet/

    From what I can see they seem quite civil and sincere about their question. Certainly Valve don't owe them anything contractually, but a bit of goodwill wouldn't go amiss.


    When the Pizza place says they'll deliver in 15 minutes, and four hours later the food still hasn't arrived, regardless of whether you've paid for yet or not I'd say you're entitled to ask them what's happening.


    Also as a general aside I'd say it's very easy for some people who haven't had to reach into their pockets and buy a game in a very long time to get terribly boorish about what Valve do or don't need to do, as well as pass comment on the worth regarding the activities of the CFC group, but quite frankly I'd say they have less right to an opinion on the matter than those of us who are genuine paying customers at the end of the day. But please do feel to argue the toss, I'm behind on my :dozey: quota for this month, and could do with some 'amusement' :dozey:
  40. Kadayi

    Kadayi Newbie

    No. My inclination is that after this much time is that EP3 has been rolled into a full game which also comes with a brand new engine. Albeit Valve built the Source engine in a modular manner so they could upgrade it as they went along, they woefully under-estimated what the competition were going to be doing with map extents at the time. Source as is, simply isn't capable of competing against the Frostbytes or Cryengines in terms of map size, and that's not something Valve can address through modular updates. If you explore the maps they built for their games using hammer you quickly realize that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on in terms of layout in order to make up for the engines spatial deficiencies. However it's not something that is worth continuing to wrestle with Vs building a newer engine more suited to larger environments coupled with handling greater complexity and easier porting to the consoles (you really do have to be multi-platform these days).

    Once DoTA2 and CS:GO are out the way I expect we'll hear something substantial. Valve aren't going to muddy the waters until both those projects are finalized. If both of those ship before E3 we might be on for an announcement of some kind then, however I'd literally just expect it to be an announcement of fothcoming with a teaser trailer and nothing more.

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