On that point, shouldn't skills have some effect on damage as well as accuracy? I mean, when you first swing a sword, you'd probably be all over the place but eventually you'll get to a point where you can hit accurately but lack the knowledge of where to hit so you don't do the most damage and then eventually you know where to hit to do most damage.
This is realtime action clashing with traditional rpg. I'm fine with telling my charatcer to attack something and sitting back to watch. I'm also fine with taking direct control - the problem we're getting in current action rpgs is trying to mix both and not making compromises. Do you want a dodge button or to rely on a stat to do it for you? Or, do it right by having a bit of both, Demon's Soul stylee.
I don't really see a problem with that. The way I'd do it is have a novice take penalties for damage and chance to hit, then quickly step up the damage, while slowly stepping up the chance to hit. A middling swordsman will know how to get the most damage with his swing/thrust, but he wont always connect, while a fencer who picks up a halberd isn't exactly going to be able to hit a lot or do much damage with his inaccurate attacks. I see no reason for skill not to affect both aspects. As for real-time versus traditional, I don't really see why they need to clash. A dodge button shouldn't mean you always succeed in getting out of a hit just because you wanted to and hit the button, and likewise you shouldn't hit just because you wanted to. The systems can, and easily should work together. If you see a guy about to take a swing at you, you attempt to dodge by telling the computer you want to do so. But depending on the various factors simulated by the gameplay mechanics (speed, player's evade skill vs enemy's attack skill, etc), you won't always successfully evade despite your intention to do so. Conversely, if you don't ever hit the dodge button, your character wont ever attempt to evade a hit. Just because the player wants to do something, doesn't mean he should be able to do it every single time. Nothing they do should be a sure thing, it should always be an "attempt" at the action. Damage scaling was a terrible way to simulate the proper mechanic.
That's just what i'm advocating, however it does clash with the traditional way of doing things as player skill plays as much a role as charatcer skill. In the days of yore everything was determined by a stat. Now, when we tell our charatcer to dodge, dexterity or perception or whatever stat it is that governs this skill takes a lesser role. I'm all for this - like you said, various stats will determine whether your dodge is successful or not and this is the way it should be in an action/rpg - but I don't think this is compatible with what Tagaziel is after.
Finally got my Game Informer and read the article. I'm really waxing for this game, if there's one thing I want them to get right it's third person perspective. It was awful in Oblivion and just as bad in Fallout 3, maybe with this new engine they can get it right.
Same here, I refused playing in 3rd person persective as it felt as if my character was skating and sliding across the landscape and combat just looks awful.
Have any games managed to switch between 1st and 3rd person well for melee? I tend to use 3rd person to check out my dudes uber gear.
They said the same thing about oblivion. Hype it up and then quietly mention that there are no shadows right before the game launches. woot.
I hope we get environment shadows this time around. I mean, every other game out there these days manages it. Why can't a massive company like Bethesda do it? They need new coders.
Todd Howard is essentially a liar. Almost every promise he's made has been backtracked. Environment shadows? Nope. Totally revamped AI? Nope, Radiant. More involved RPG? Nope, fewer skills and abilities. New engine? Nope, Gamebryo with a new title.
I did giggle a little about that screenshot earlier in the thread that was posted almost immediately after a quote saying environmental shadows were added. But hey, at least it's better than releasing a ton of screenies with environmental shadows and then barely advertising that they were completely removed from the game. Right?
Or maybe they were too lazy to balance them, just like they cut medium armour instead of fixing it? Uh, what? You had to dodge and move out of the way in Morrowind too, in addition to factoring in hit chance. Since you only have to worry about dodging in Oblivion, since every hit connects, it's practically a textbook definition of dumbing down. More skill with weapon = Better accuracy. "You can fix it with a mod therefore the developers don't have to worry about balancing the game and coding it properly, the fans will fix it anyways". Thanks for making your opinion clear. Wow, now that's a stupid statement. Yes, I want the game to decide if I blocked or dodge, basing on the stats and skills of my character. Role playing games should generally work like that, that's what separates them from action games. And what's wrong with 1985? You still haven't explained why couldn't it be fixed. No one. I'm supporting variety in gameplay, not dumbing it down by removing options. Heh, "work"? Got any proof that Radiant Story is going to work? Or that they managed to get Radiant AI to work. Yes, you are. It doesn't matter how many games you purchase, if you excuse simplifying games as progress and cutting features as refinement, you're a mindless consumer drone. How about your get your head out of your ass? So if you can't think of a way to fix it, and you're the omniscient, all-powerful God of Game Design, then it's absolutely impossible to do. How do you manage to breathe, out of curiosity? The fact that you've been unable to get a job as a game designer for those 26 years is pretty telling of your ability to design gameplay and games in general.
Morrowind was a great game with terrible combat. Weapon strikes that pass through the enemy 20-40 times in a row because the enemy had better stats than you... So when making Oblivion, they could have implemented evasion animations. But the attack rate of the dagger - for example - was so fast, that you could swing it 1 or 2 times per second. So imagine your character dodging out of the way of a dagger 20 or 40 times in a row. Right difficult to animate that realistically. But what they chose to implement in Oblivion was the finest First Person swordplay mechanic we have had in a game yet. The game has taken a design change, for better or worse. As far as I'm concerned that was one of the only things they did right in Oblivion. So expecting or even wanting them to go back to the way they did things in previous titles (like Morrowind or Daggerfall) is a bit wishful. @ Tag Look, I know Bethesda raped you in the ass and burned down your village but you have to move on. Because you want something quite specific - that in my opinion, is really stupid. So if you have an obscure demand, perhaps that’s just too bad. On the other hand, you can remove weapon skill factoring in under 5 minutes, if you are so angry about it. So quit bitching. Well, the whole idea is stupid as I’ve explained. Why should enemies die from attacking you? It's not fun, challenging or interesting. Could you be any more immature? I haven't actually pursued it yet because I have taken other career choices. It's just a dream job, I guess. 26 years ago, I was 9 years old, BTW.
I hated this aspect for the longest time before realizing that fatigue in Morrowind ACTUALLY matters as opposed to Oblivion. Now that I know this its more tolerable. That said I much prefer the 'If it hits, it hits" philosophy.
Guys, why are you so worried about dynamic shadows? "Creation engine" specs are clear: there will be full dynamic shadows. Bethesda is strongly advertising this feature, so I don't see why it shouldn't be in. By the way, some of the arguments in this thread are really childish: Bethesda haters vs. fanboys. Come on guys, the game is not out yet, so take a deep breath, relax and don't jump to conclusions.
Oblivion's engine's specs were clear too. There would be full dynamic environment shadows. LOL NOPE Virus, you never cease to amuse me. I didn't notice your appeal to your own authority before. Good stuff. "I'm a hobbyist game developer, so I know what I'm talking about." Bwahaha.
The funny thing about the phrase "full dynamic environment shadows" is that it can be interpreted as "dynamic shadows cast on the environment" which is nothing more than dynamic object shadows actually being visible. Which is what Gamebryo has.
It's an RPG. Stats matter. Maybe they should've created an individual set of animations for dagger-type weapons then? Obviously, if evasion animations were implemented, then the game would've been balanced differently. Finest? I'd call Dark Messiah far better than Oblivion in that aspect. Why is asking the game to make a modicum of sense stupid? All you've explain is that the system can be abused by metagaming. I doubt any first time player is aware that it can be exploited. I certainly weren't (and I've played Morrowind to death). I'm not the one claiming that my opinion is the Word of God. I might be an arrogant asshole, but you take the cake. Let's quote some, shall we? Coming straight from you. It's a shame a 35 year old man fails to have a modicum of modesty.
Quoted for fact. My only complaint about that game is that it was more of a melee fps with the length of a 10 dollar game. They nailed the gameplay down to an art though. I also enjoyed the multiplayer even though it lagged like shit.
I wouldn't go quite that far. More involved than Oblivion's, sure, but the combat in Dark Messiah wasn't that great (although it never got boring kicking ppl to their doom ). Melee combat can get a whole lot better.
I liked the kick move, but the finishing moves were extremely repetitive. I was disappointed with this game. I was fairly disappointed with Oblivion as well, but not the combat. Regardless, I hope Skyrim offers improvements. You seem to be the only one to think that having more experience with a particular weapon type won't lead to being able to use it more effectively. That doesn't make sense to you. Moving on. I did my best to explain why I think it's better off without it, and you apparently do not understand what I'm saying. Why is the word of God so easy to misunderstand or misinterpret? I think this is a fault of the reader. The thing that is irking me is that I'm being pegged as someone approving of dumbing everything down and simplifying everything. My first reaction? Look at this: That was before I came to remember what Mysticism did, and remembering that it was something that I actually thought ruined the gameplay. Why do you think I bothered to stick up for that decision! Other than that, I have been complaining about them dropping features as long as everyone else, going back 5 years. Thanks! He said I think my opinions are "divine". I am agreeing with him and explaining why. It's my life. DAMN RIGHT MY OPINIONS ARE THE WORD OF GOD. Silence, you peasant. You do not know what a perfectionist is. A perfectionist is not someone who thinks they are perfect. A perfectionist is very judgmental and hard on everything and everyone - even themselves. That's not vanity, you fool. Is it vain to want a game to be perfect? I think my opinions are the word of God, and you think you are an arrogant asshole. So can we move on now? > Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. > Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. God has spoken.
I'm torn as to how the combat system should really function. I agree with Virus that I hated how in Morrowind you could swing a ridiculous amount of times and not make contact. On the other hand, in Morrowind stats like Fatigue actually had a significant effect on your combat effectiveness, which then required a bit more stat managing. My best guess on a compromise is essentially doing what they did to archery: make attacks much slower, but more powerful all around. The more fatigued you are, the slower your attacks become and the less damage they do. Hell, they could possibly have attacks do no damage like in Morrowind, provided that they actually provided some feedback to you hitting them but not doing any damage (having the sword ring off the armour instead of going through all the time).
VT2, have you made any mods for games that actually noticably alter gameplay features or such, or have all your mods pretty much been re-texturing and making weapons with custom textures and stats(but not models)? Just wondering.
I hope Virus gets banned soon. Hes clearly trolling. Not only with the things he says, but with the colors in which he says them.
I know that was written in jest, but that is precisely what 1st person melee combat needs. Being able to accuractely attack joins in armour, stab through eye slots, cut off heads and hands. Anyone who has played the fruit slicing game in Resort will know how precise and accurate motion control can be.
It should be an alternative, and not something forced upon the player. Not all players want to have to toss their arms around constantly to fight. Especially not in a game as large and with as much combat as the ES series.
You wouldn't have to flail the wiimote or Move or whatever around like a loony. Just little swipes of the wrist - your arm wouldn't have to leave the arm rest. Regardless, I don't see how it would be possible to have both types of control without limiting motion control and gameplay to the level in which there's no point in having it. Very slightly related (in a 3rd person with no melee kind of way): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RYBGCAtDLU Wouldn't it be cool to cast a wall of fire like this in a game like Elder Scrolls?
Knee jerk motion control reaction, or you just don't like the idea? I'd rather choose exactly where my fire wall goes than have the computer work it out for me.
Uh, you can aim just fine with the analog sticks or mouse... I just don't relish the idea of playing a 100+ hour game standing up and swinging my arms around.
You can play motion controlled games sitting down without your arm leaving your lap you know - jumping around like a tit isn't compulsory
The point is that motion control should be it's own game. You really couldn't (and really shouldn't) make a game with both control schemes and satisfy all users. This is the same reasons that games created for two systems are usually shittier on one than the other.
Motion controlled games are all good and well, but Skyrim I presume is going to be a very long game and playing it with Kinect or Move would get tiresome pretty quickly once the novelty wears off.
Try not to dodge the point of the question when you answer. We are discussing the combat system, not vanity elements like finishing moves. The existence of the kick and general fluidity of combat in Dark Messiah beat the clunky and artificial combat in Oblivion any day, I believe. I've posted above that higher skill levels should result in better accuracy. You also seem to forget that combat in games is by necessity an abstraction, and thus isn't slave to realism whenever gameplay is concerned. Just because someone can be skilled enough to murder someone with a toothpick in real life doesn't mean the toothpick should be that powerful in the hands of a maxed character in a game. You haven't explained why it was better to remove it instead of fixing it. Your point is simple: you can't think of how to balance it, therefore everyone else cannot. And yet, here you are, complimenting Bethesda on removing 1/6 of the TES magic system. And arguing that unarmoured was overpowered, so it's good that it was removed. And they call me arrogant. I know what the term means and that's precisely why I think you're an arrogant egotist. An actual perfectionist would also hold himself to the highest standards, meaning, he would show modesty, restraint and rationalism. So far, you're the exact anti-thesis, with the appeal to authority ("I am a perfectionist, therefore I am right and you are wrong") being the biggest example of how you are not a perfectionist. > Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. > Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. God has spoken.[/QUOTE] My Atheist Aura renders me immune to Word of God. Sorry.
I can't just ignore a major downfall, and excuse it because the rest of the game is okay. Like, she could be the perfect woman, but unfortunately she has a penis. To me that's kind of a big deal. On the repetition of the finishing moves. To me, repetition represents hell - not entertainment. Maybe you try to fix retarded ideas until they aren't quite as bad. I take good ideas and try to make them better. I just want them to do it right, or don't do it at all. I don't care if they change it, fix it, or remove it, as long as it's not bad anymore. Well, they removed it, and hey, I'll take that result. The crux of my supposition was that there are reasons why things get dropped, and it's not because they are lazy or untalented, as you suggest. You said I have a god complex, which I found amusing at first so I played along, like turning the other cheek. Anyway I'm not sure what you keep getting at, we don't have to be friends. Uh... everyone thinks their opinions are better than others, either that or they would change them. If I thought your opinion was better, it would become my opinion as well. This is why you aren't a moderator anymore, am I correct? You've made this personal from the beginning. I honestly just do not care what you think of me.