Crazy Conservative Lady creams self over movie 300's jihadist parallel

Discussion in 'Politics' started by CptStern, Mar 21, 2007.

  1. Sulkdodds

    Sulkdodds Companion Cube

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    Could you be any more vague?

    Maybe you should explain your statements. That way, they would be of actual use to other people.

    Yes, I know he's deliberately drawing a parallel between 6th-century Islam and modern Islam - if that's what you're saying - but CrazyCracka seemed to take it as a specific indictment of all modern muslims - "the ones who are doing all heinous things Frank cries about". It's not, and though it does seek to draw a more general parallel between "6th century barbarism" and savagery in our own millenium, I found Cracka's response a profoundly odd one.

    Or maybe that's not what you mean at all? Maybe I'm ignorant in some other way. Pity I can't tell from your post. I guess there's no way for me to correct my oversight.
     
  2. Bob_Marley

    Bob_Marley Tank

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    According to wikipedia:

    Personally I'd never come across it before I read this thread.
     
  3. PvtRyan

    PvtRyan Party Escort Bot

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    Great the "it's only a small group of idiots!"-argument. First off, it's not a 'small' minority by any means, in neither the Christian nor the Muslim camp. Second, even if it's a minority, it's still a disturbingly large group of morons. If 40% of atheists turn out to be pedophiles, you can bet I'll be first to say "there's something seriously wrong with that group". This is exactly what people like Sam Harris mean with moderates shielding the extremists from criticism. You can't criticize Islam because there's a lot of non-retarded Muslims as well. I'm not putting every Muslim into the same category, I'm criticizing the category they are in! And that happens to be a pretty barbaric and unsophisticated one.

    Guess what? Moderate Muslims are not a nice example of the good side of Islam, there a nice example of the moderating effect of secularism. Someone following Islam to the letter might nog be a head slicing barbarian, but it's almost certain that it's someone who's unfriendly to women, gays, infidels and the likes (or at least gives them a different value). Someone is perfectly in their right to criticize Islam as a whole and the culture that comes from it.

    I'll analyze what Miller says:

    True. Conservative Islam hasn't advanced a bit since that time.

    True.

    True, true, true.

    True, the Arab world that was once the scientific capital of the world is now scientifically dead, purely because of religion.

    Now, I'm sure I'll get the whole "but that's only a small (and the ever classic "but vocal") minority!". Sure, and that means it's perfectly alright to criticize whatever they get their ideas from, which is Islam. Even if atheists are not all pedophiles (just for example 40%), I'd say it would be justified to classify the group as a whole as bad. There's a disproportionately large group of creeps.

    And the fact that religious extremism in America doesn't show itself as violence doesn't mean it's less extreme. Someone in a sophisticated country is less likely to resort to unsophisticated weaponry or violence in general. But someone who would like to see creationism taught in schools instead of evolution (which is apparently 43% of Americans) is no less extreme in the head than someone willing to cut off the heads of infidels. Just less violent about it.

    Just like the extremely large group of people who believe the world was created instantly less than 10.000 years ago. Or the majority of Americans that would limit someone's freedom to marry someone of the same sex just because their god says so, or the 62% that wouldn't vote for a candidate that admits not believing in God. All extreme nutjobs and none are small minorities.

    As for Islam, large minorties think it's perfectly alright to kill people in defense of the Islam, as shown in this 2002 report.

    In this table the 'rarely justified' answers have been added to the 'justified' table because someone who thinks suicide bombing innocents is EVER justified is as bad as someone who thinks it's often justified:
    That's the moderate Muslim countries. In 2002, before Iraq and Libanon. And it shows 1 in 5 Muslims in Turkey - which is the most secular Islamic country (contradiction!) and wishes to join the EU - thinks it's ever justified to blow up innocent people to defend their imaginary skygod. And that's a small minority of idiots, you say?
     
  4. Sulkdodds

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    Though I don't know too much about the period, I kinda doubt that. I'm sure there were other reasons too.

    I disagree. With atheism in that example, there's no evidence beyond the mere statistic that the paedophilia is actually related to the evidence. Barbarism in modern Islam, meanwhile, is directly related to the religion itself.

    The reason you should criticise Islam is not because a high proportion of Muslims are crazy, but surely more because of the crazyness inherent within the religion itself.
     
  5. PvtRyan

    PvtRyan Party Escort Bot

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    I agree, which you can't do because moderate Muslims will say "you can't criticize Islam because only a small minority interprets it the wrong way".
     
  6. Sulkdodds

    Sulkdodds Companion Cube

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    Yeah, true, and you're right that it's a spurious argument. I just felt you focused unduly on the statistics, even extrapolating them in a slightly bizarre way.
     
  7. Absinthe

    Absinthe The Freeman

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    Many other cultures are also inherently far less moral than those of the civilized West.

    Let's just grant for for the moment that ethics and morality are concerned with suffering and happiness. The Muslim world is ages behind the USA or any other civilized Western nation in that regard.

    There is an objective standard for morality. The hijackers of 9/11, the people behind it, and those who supported it do not meet that standard. Saying that everything is subjective is just pointless and utterly stupid upon any remote inspection. Islamic states support execution for infidelity and sometimes victims of rape. That is totally irrational and warped, so don't pretend otherwise.
     
  8. Gunner

    Gunner Tank

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    Who are you to judge one of the world's most ancient civilizations? "pretty shitty"? Go read some books, educate yourself.

     
  9. Sulkdodds

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    Oh. Well, now you've motivated me to actually go and find out about it. You should have said that in the first place!

    "Pretty shitty" was supposed to be a flippant admission of my own very vague knowledge, rather than genuinely bastardish and ignorant - sorry.

    I'm not sure the supercilious contempt was really necessary in your original post, but whatever.

    EDIT: I would have thought your ire would be more directed at PvtRyan who originally made the assertion , but whatever.
     
  10. Gunner

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    Ok I'm sorry I jumped at you Sulk, my apologies :-p
     
  11. Absinthe

    Absinthe The Freeman

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    Ancient Persian culture is shitty by today's standards.

    This doesn't require a lot of thought.
     
  12. Stingey

    Stingey Newbie

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    Ancient Persian culture compared to the rest of the world at that point makes our culture look like an anthill >_>
     
  13. Xiphos

    Xiphos Newbie

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    ever heardof athens? Pericles?
     

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